Caught in the Middle

[Anonymous]

Hi StayLDSers!

I don’t even know where to begin. Not sure if I am excited or scared while I am writing. Or should I even be writing. I haven’t been lurking for very long and haven’t read much of what is on here, although I’m pretty sure that I know much of what it says. I am a life long Mormon, father, married in the temple, RM, Eagle Scout, genealogy completed back to the stone age who has struggled off and on for the better part of the past decade with my testimony. I have some hang ups with early church history and truth claims, but I love the gospel, what it instills and the community benefits of membership. I don’t want to leave or acknowledge my problems to my leaders, but I find listening to some of the teachings difficult. For now, I choose to remain in and active in the church because I feel that it is the best thing for my family, but sometimes inside I wonder if this is all just a big sham. I am curious to know how many of you feel the same way. Did you eventually find a way to remain or ultimately leave the church?

Confused and hurting.

[Anonymous]

Great intro. I know many here can relate, including me, although I enjoy participating in the church more than I sometimes have in the past. I get personal benefits. But I have my doubts, too.

[Anonymous]

HRHB,

Welcome…glad to have you here. I think you’ll fit in nicely as many of us share similar thoughts and it is often refreshing to feel similarities. But while we can openly discuss things on this forum, what you do in person with your family, friends, and ward members is ultimately important, IMO.

I don’t find myself caught in the middle, but striving to find peace in the middle…realizing extremes on either side of the spectrum seem equally inadequate based on personal experience.

There are some good readings in the StayLDS library which suggest things are rarely black and white, but gray and paradoxical, and I believe we can find a middle way deeper and more meaningful, even if others don’t agree.

I recommend googling “Ulrich Cognitive Dissonance” and read her FAIR lecture on “Help Thou My Unbelief” – it may give some ideas and thoughts for you to chew on.

Glad you’re here. I look forward to learning from your posts.

[Anonymous]

HRHB wrote:

I [have] struggled off and on for the better part of the past decade with my testimony. I have some hang ups with early church history and truth claims, but I love the gospel, what it instills and the community benefits of membership. I don’t want to leave or acknowledge my problems to my leaders, but I find listening to some of the teachings difficult. For now, I choose to remain in and active in the church because I feel that it is the best thing for my family, but sometimes inside I wonder if this is all just a big sham. I am curious to know how many of you feel the same way. Did you eventually find a way to remain or ultimately leave the church?

Confused and hurting.

You’re in the right place here on StayLDS. Most have exactly the same feelings you do, I know I have in the past.

As stated in my Introduction, I spiritually left and for the most part have come back, being on a journey on the Way for some time now. I feel strongly this morning that the middle-way is the Way. Here’s why.

A recent poster here cited a verse in Galatians 1 about how the book of mormon is ‘another gospel’ and therefore mormonism is accursed. This triggered something in my head: a core principle about what the Gospel/Good News really is: that if god lives, if jesus is the christ, if paul received the gospel through revelation after the ascension and independently of any initial dispensation, then revelation from god, both to the church as well as to me as an individual, must be the essential hallmark of the gospel. While my personal statement of belief varies considerably from the orthodox LDS definitions of things, I feel strongly that I have had such personal revelations: in connection with the Book of Mormon, certain of the teachings of the Church, and as well: the Tao Te Ching, the Bhagavad Gita, and listening to arabic recitation of the Qu’ran.

But personal and corporate revelation is an imprecise process: my views of god, etc., vary significantly from others, and yet, they are true to me. I’d also add that I’m a pretty flawed individual, with addictions, obsessions, and defects of character that drive my DW nuts. So, to my view, revelation to a ‘sinful’ individual is a reality. In this lens, I see that JS and BY and others were very flawed individuals who put forward what they considered a view of divinity and organized a church to help us get away from dogmatic, creedal christianity that denies the efficacy and importance of revelation. The idea that God is finished communicating through the Bible alone, the idea that God only selects a few to be saved and has deliberately created creatures that are destined to be in hell — these are all pretty much messed up doctrines. True, not all christian faiths believe these concepts, but there is cause for concern, and in my impression, JS and BY did the world a favor by pointing out that the ‘revelation of jesus christ’ could be a real thing in this time. And for this goal, perhaps as misguided as it sometimes appeared, I am deeply grateful.

Because revelation is personal, and reflected through inspiration into the ‘mind and heart’, (see D&C 8:2-3), it tends to be a little imprecise and influenced by the cultural and personal biases of the individual. The church’s doctrines and history are full of evidence of flawed personality. This is on one hand absolutely crazy, and on the other, sublime. Crazy, because all sorts of wacko principles crop up into the speculation about unknowable things — hence church doctrine is littered with some really far-out speculations. Sublime, because it means that flawed individuals like me can actually tap into knowledge from the divine, however that works.

Yes, there are some pretty profound problems, (1) the church has created an orthodoxy that stifles personal thinking and revelation, (2) it is pathologically incapable of coming to grips with the flaws of history and leadership, and (3) on occasions, it takes uninspired positions that harm people. These aren’t minor issues, and once a person comes to a personal realization of the defects, it’s hard to buy into the TBM model — it’s hard to drink the flavor-aid. On the other hand, by having to personally deal with this cognitive dissonance, it offers me, at least, the imperative to sort things out for myself, to come to a personal set of beliefs, and then to take the church for what it is, flaws and all, just like i have to with any other human being.

And so the journey on the middle-way path continues.

Welcome! May you find joy in this amazing journey!

And

[Anonymous]

I’m a guy who is always looking for reasons to stay. It’s been difficult, and I have been less active for awhile now. But I would like to find a place where I can enjoy life and find peace in the “middle way.” Still searching and working to make that happen. I really do think the LDS church is one such pathway that people can follow to find peace and the gods in this lifetime, and perhaps the next. It has a lot of good to offer a lot of people.

It’s a tough road. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

HRHB, I don’t have the same history or geneology but, I know how you feel. There is no need to feel scared. We do this all anonymously.

No one needs to know any of your details unless you choose to reveal more.

Welcome to the group.

Mike from Milton.

[Anonymous]

Most of us do this anonymously. :shh:

Seriously, welcome! The people here definitely can relate.

Fwiw, something struck me as I read your introduction that I don’t think I’ve phrased this way in the past on this site:

I love my kids. I know their strengths and weaknesses really well by now. (They range in age from 23-9.) I have experienced incredible joy, pride, love, etc. as their father – and I have experienced some of my most intense fear, concern and even anger as their father. I have felt those extremes largely because 1) I know them so well and want so much for them to be “true” / “good” / whatever, and 2) I spend so stinking much time with them (they are constantly before my eyes, so to speak). I love them dearly, but they drive me nuts often, as well.

I just described how I feel and have felt about the LDS Church. It’s worth considering, I think, in that light – that it’s totally fine to have a complex, contradictory, “real” relationship with the Church.

Anything else (anything more “simple” or “consistent”) just wouldn’t be “real” – at least not for me.

[Anonymous]

Hi, yourself, and welcome.

wayfarer wrote:

You’re in the right place here on StayLDS. Most have exactly the same feelings you do.

^^^ this 🙂

Quote:

JS and BY and others were very flawed individuals who put forward what they considered a view of divinity and organized a church to help us get away from dogmatic, creedal christianity that denies the efficacy and importance of revelation.

Too bad that what they started eventually turned into just that — dogmatic and institutional, and antagonistic to any personal revelation that doesn’t meet certain standards of orthodoxy.

[Anonymous]

doug wrote:

wayfarer wrote:

JS and BY and others were very flawed individuals who put forward what they considered a view of divinity and organized a church to help us get away from dogmatic, creedal christianity that denies the efficacy and importance of revelation.

Too bad that what they started eventually turned into just that — dogmatic and institutional, and antagonistic to any personal revelation that doesn’t meet certain standards of orthodoxy.

yes, it is truly sad. but the idea that anyone can have revelation, and teach it as such, can create a cacophony of interpretive speculations that cause a lot of confusion. In my impression, LDS, Inc. is trying to get into the mainstream and out of the fringe. GBH was a master public relations guy, and knowing the reaction of the media to fringe doctrine, tried to keep the noise to a minimum. It started much earlier than that, through ‘correlation’. I’m sure someone here knows when that all started.

I’ve had a lot of opportunity to engage in interfaith dialogue. One of the keys of communication is that when one speaks or prays for a collection of people whose faiths are quite distinct, the words used in prayer need to be inclusive. modern, politically correct inclusive language can make LDS church correlation look like the wild west — there aren’t a lot of things one can say. Is it wrong to use a common framework of understanding to discuss gospel issues? I do not think so. But to reflect my own heterodox understanding of the god as I understand it, is to cause waves in a meeting or class that don’t edify others.

People of true, believing faith come to church to be edified, to be comforted by the spirit, to be told that they’re ok, that god loves them, that their mistakes are fixable, and that they’re on the right track, whatever that may mean. Many are quite content to have a level 1 or level 2 stage faith, literally believing the stories and history, and don’t want to hear more. Unfortunately, ‘more’ is not always better. ‘more’ can often lead to fantastic speculations of the nature of god leading to some very strange conclusions if one continues to take gospel things literally.

So we’re faced with a number of choices. To go to church or not. to share what we really feel or not. And to many, to most perhaps, going to church, participating, and supressing what we really feel is a non-starter. Hence, today I feel that many of those in the middle way won’t opt for that middle path. Attending and being frank about what we believe is a painful path but full of integrity. Not attending leaves open the idea of expressing or not what we feel, and still have integrity. But the really hard part is to attend and not express — arguably the most survivable middle way in terms of not making waves, but the cost on one’s own integrity can be very high.

I choose to abide by that middle path — to be active, to support my DW and those in my family who choose to be TBM, and to be a listening ear to those in my family who do not choose that path. Of the six wonderful women I have had the privilege of calling my family (1 wife and five daughters), two are TBM, two are NOM-ish but active, and two are out. I have no intent whatsoever of converting any of them to a different path. So, we use the language of inclusion — which means not bringing up issues that shake trees of faith, but also not pushing the point of religion at all. It works…mostly.

[Anonymous]

Well, it has been a little more than a week since my initial post. 😳 I would like to have posted and replied more since then, but someone has to make a living to feed this family and pay the bills. I wanted to thank those of you who responded and welcomed me to the forum. I found your responses helpful and comforting. :clap:

For me, I don’t think that I will ever really leave the church, although in someways I feel it has left me. Somehow, I have found a way to believe in being good, loving and serving and IMO, the church, albeit imperfect, is the best vehicle in which to do that while raising a family.

Sometimes I have to stop myself from delving into the historical past and faith claims because I get obsessed by it and then have a difficult time functioning in other areas of my life. It seems so strange that we can’t have more open dialogue about these things in the church. I get the sense that mass numbers of members will start to think and feel the same way I do and then one day we’ll all just look at each other and say, “Who are we kidding?” Some will leave, but I think most will stay for the reasons I do. I figure, that will probably happen in my lifetime, so I can be patient. Maybe even help it along.

Sorry for the random thoughts. These posts are my first attempts at writing/verbalizing how I really feel about all of this. Can’t imagine saying any of this to my bishop. :crazy:

Any advice about speaking to my spouse about this? I have always been honest with her about everything, but I find myself holding back about this. I have already shared some with her, but I’m not sure how much is enough.

[Anonymous]

That’s good that you have your priorities and are focusing on your work and family…so no need to apologize for taking a week to respond. That’s the nice thing about asynchronous discussions online. You can respond at your pace when you have time.

I do think it is good for spouses to be open and honest when they can, but it takes the right timing, dosage, and tact. I have never felt it a good idea to just start dumping things on my spouse or family because I’m thinking about it. But at times when the context is right and natural, sharing your beliefs tactfully is a good way to open up and see how your spouse feels about it. I have found at times if I sound too negative, it isn’t the topic that concerns my wife, but her notion of our partnership and eternal progression and a bunch of other fears that creep into it. So you need to consider that before bringing up radical new ideas never discussed in your marriage before.

But keeping secrets or burying feelings isn’t the best approach to a long term healthy relationship IMO.

[Anonymous]

HRHB wrote:

Well, it has been a little more than a week since my initial post. 😳 I would like to have posted and replied more since then, but someone has to make a living to feed this family and pay the bills. I wanted to thank those of you who responded and welcomed me to the forum. I found your responses helpful and comforting. :clap:

For me, I don’t think that I will ever really leave the church, although in someways I feel it has left me. Somehow, I have found a way to believe in being good, loving and serving and IMO, the church, albeit imperfect, is the best vehicle in which to do that while raising a family.

Sometimes I have to stop myself from delving into the historical past and faith claims because I get obsessed by it and then have a difficult time functioning in other areas of my life. It seems so strange that we can’t have more open dialogue about these things in the church. I get the sense that mass numbers of members will start to think and feel the same way I do and then one day we’ll all just look at each other and say, “Who are we kidding?” Some will leave, but I think most will stay for the reasons I do. I figure, that will probably happen in my lifetime, so I can be patient. Maybe even help it along.

Sorry for the random thoughts. These posts are my first attempts at writing/verbalizing how I really feel about all of this. Can’t imagine saying any of this to my bishop. :crazy:

Any advice about speaking to my spouse about this? I have always been honest with her about everything, but I find myself holding back about this. I have already shared some with her, but I’m not sure how much is enough.

Hi HRHB,

First off, I’d suggest (as others have advised me)… to take it slow & voice your questions to your spouse (in a “we’re in this together” kind-of-way).

I didn’t do this, but instead let it build up & then just exploded a few times.

God is truth & light… Our goal. There are some beautiful truths & light in the church & there are some aspects that are dark & questionable.

The way I see history – is that it’s His-story… it’s then.

But unfortunately, with all of the history lessons in church, it tends to almost worshiped in an unquestioning kind of way.

I still go to church & serve in callings. I did tell my bishop (not my previous one, which would have been a nightmare)… but my current more open-minded one.

I feel kindof lonely – but it’s mostly when I’m thinking of differences.

When I’m doing good, I focus on loving others & appreciating being loved… & learning deeper & better interpretations of scripture parables & symbolism.

I hope that more & more in the church will see the good & embrace it still, while letting the bad go.

I hope that more will prioritize truth & love above trusting in any arm of flesh – even if they have a fancy title.

[Anonymous]

My bishop walked out of the Worldwide Leadership training and said, Doesn’t some of that sound a bit hoakish? This same man who declared the church was true the week before in SM. So maybe don’t count your bishop out, tread lightly, test the waters but he may be more sympathetic than you think. And so may be your wife.

Welcome!

[Author]

Posts