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Have you ever thought that the temple experience is really just for this life? A paradox, I know, but just as funerals are for the living, so too are perhaps temple covenants there primarily to make this life a smoother ride until we can know the truth? I have to confess, when I pass on to the next life, then there will likely be a lot of questions answered, and a number of new questions.
cwald wrote:alaskaboy19 wrote:Yes but I wonder about
nonmembers. Do we know they will not be able to be with their families? Do you really think God cares or is going to check your paperwork in the next life.
Love and commitment is what will determine the next life….not a certificate. IMO
with you 100%as for next life, i have enough to do in this one to find myself in harmony with the Way, the Truth, and Life here and now. I think i shall just anchor myself there, and let the next life take care of itself.
alaskaboy19 wrote:So the only way to be sealed to your loved ones is if you join the church.
No. According to our story, the only way to be sealed to your loved ones is accepting the ordinances and realizing their benefits. At the current time, a very very very narrow sliver of time, that work happens to be organized under the name “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” If you follow our own story in the scriptures, it wasn’t called that name in other times. It didn’t look like it does today. It didn’t function like it does today. Today is today. Yesterday is yesterday. Tomorrow is … who knows?
I know a lot of members like to think being a member of our church is the be-all, end-all, but it’s not. It’s just the current incarnation of the work (or a current path for the work if you want to look at it more loosely).
Most people will NEVER be a member of TCOJCOLDS. But *ALL* people will apparently get a chance to receive the ordinances and explore the meaning of their benefits (according to our own story). I would argue that point with anyone.
alaskaboy19 wrote:But as I understand, the ordinances only matter if the person accepts the gospel. So that’s why we’ll have missionary work in the afterlife going on to those in spirit prison.
The Gospel does not equal The Church. Again, many members mistakenly conflate the two, but they are FAR from the same. The Church is just an earthly institution organized to help spread the Gospel. The missionaries in the afterlife, if you accept that story as literal with dudes on bicycles and name tags, will be preaching truth and exaltation — the Gospel. There won’t be Scouts on Wed night or basketball. There won’t be green jello salad eating contests, sorry. There won’t be a ward building to clean on Saturday.
There will be spirits visiting other spirits, telling them about how to advance and become higher consciousness. They will preach truth — truth that is both good and valuable, whatever that is.
alaskaboy19 wrote:My question is why won’t missionary work be %100 successful in spirit prison, since the adversary will have no influence there? Isn’t the adversary the only force that prevents people from feeling the spirit and being converted?
Because we feel the strong urge to include free choice in our story. Free choice is so powerful a concept in Mormonism, even God has to submit to the free choice of his creations (to put it bluntly). The story of missionary work in the afterlife has that element woven into it. It’s a paradox. Religious stories often contain those kinds of elements in tension.
alaskaboy19 wrote:Yes but I wonder about
nonmembers. Do we know they will not be able to be with their families?
Nope. But when the Prophet Joseph was worried about his nonmember deceased brother Alvin…he felt OK that it will work out, and temple work is one way things can work out, but surely there are other ways for God to extend His love and blessings to all who deserve it.Therefore, we know as much about nonmembers eternal families as we know about ours…which is to have hope for it.
Alaskaboy, here is the Church Handbook quote: (This is what they teach) Quote:Exaltation in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom can be attained only by those who have faithfully lived the gospel of Jesus Christ and are sealed as eternal companions.
The sealing of husband and wife for time and eternity by the authority of the priesthood—also known as temple marriage—is a sacred privilege and obligation that all should strive to receive. It is the foundation of an eternal family.
Quote:Have you ever thought that the temple experience is really just for this life? A paradox, I know, but just as funerals are for the living, so too are perhaps temple covenants there primarily to make this life a smoother ride until we can know the truth?
My feelings as well, the part of eternity that a temple sealing is really needed is this part.
After pondering the details for long periods, I don’t really see how it is even possible for “families are forever” to actually function the way it’s portrayed in the old missionary videos. They paint it as if your current nuclear family, with little kids and spouse, will be frozen in time … or something like that. I love my parents, but I don’t want to live with them as their 10 year old kid. I have adult kids now too. I love them, and that is why I want them to fly away and find their own life adventure. I don’t want them to be stuck with me. I don’t want them to feel like they have to be just like me. I hope they are better actually. I’m a mess
I also seriously doubt that new consciousness (aka spirit children) are created using earthly, biological, sexual reproduction methods. I question that marriage means the same thing exactly as it does in this life. For one thing, I don’t think we can be complete and perfected if we NEED someone else, certainly not if we are jealous of losing their affections or something petty like that.
It seems more likely, to me personally, that we merge consciousness and act as a great “council” in the CK. I don’t know that, but it makes more sense than living forever in a frozen nuclear earth family for all eternity.
Brian, you sound like your grand councils may allow for polyandry? 
alaskaboy19 wrote:Do we believe that all of us get special kudos, because we were actually part of the less-than-one-percent that actually accepted the church on earth?
No. It has nothing to do with the final reward (remember even the 11th hour laborers receive the same wage). There ought to be inherent blessings in the knowledge you have and the way you live HERE AND NOW. For me, that blessing most often takes the form of peace and meaning. It also takes the form of community, better relationships because I make choices that lead to those based on my beliefs, and less worry about fleeting mortal cares because I recognize their insignificance. The gospel should bring you joy now. I know that for a lot of people that isn’t the case and I think there are systemic as well as individual reasons for this but I also know that all those reasons can be overcome.Brian,
In the scriptures, God’s seed is always created by covenant rather than by natural methods (B. Young’s thoughts on the miraculous conception notwithstanding).
If we follow the pattern of our parentage, then it stands to reason our seed is created by following the principles of priesthood/godhood explained in D&C 121. In other words, we exercise persuasion, long-suffering, love unfeigned, we are people of virtue who stand unwavering upon fixed principles of mercy and justice, we are characterized by charity that surpasses even the bonds of death and so forth. Then, and only then, is our “scepter” eternal and our dominion flows unto us without compulsory means.
My belief is that our dominion/seed/posterity seeks us out because of WHO we are. They are uncreated, presuming the doctrine of intelligences is accurate and simply progress, as we have, from lesser to higher order beings.
Fwiw, I believe in a council of the gods and in creation (even of spirits / spirit children) as much more of a scientific, laboratory process than as a biological, gestational process. I believe families can be together forever – but not as individual families.
Old-Timer wrote:Fwiw, I believe in a council of the gods and in creation (even of spirits / spirit children) as much more of a scientific, laboratory process than as a biological, gestational process.
I believe families can be together forever – but not as individual families.
I have no idea if it’s correct or not obviously but that is just how I pictured it growing up. Without even thinking about it, that is what just popped in my mind growing up. With regards to families in eternity I haven’t quite figured out the difference between a couple that stay together by a “law of binding” and a couple or family that chooses to be together without a “law of binding”. Any thoughts Old-Timer or anyone else?
I believe we bind ourselves to each other, that we separate ourselves from each other and that the concept of eternal sealing as embodied in the temple is a wonderful, profound, necessary thing for many people. I love the concept, even if I don’t put any power into the ordinance in and of itself. Also, I am confident every apostle in the LDS Church agrees with that last sentence, since every one of them will say that people who are sealed in the temple won’t stay sealed automatically just because of that ceremonial sealing. An abusive jerk won’t be able to abuse his wife and kids eternally just because he lied to get into the temple and participate in a sealing ordinance – but a righteous, loving spouse who truly becomes bound to his or her spouse in this life will gratefully accept the continuation of that sealed relationship in the next life, regardless of whether they were part of a ceremonial sealing in this life.
That’s pure Mormonism, imo; mutations of it are human attempts to figure it out within the constraints of their own lives, cultures and experiences.
Forgotten_Charity wrote:Old-Timer wrote:Fwiw, I believe in a council of the gods and in creation (even of spirits / spirit children) as much more of a scientific, laboratory process than as a biological, gestational process.
I believe families can be together forever – but not as individual families.
I have no idea if it’s correct or not obviously but that is just how I pictured it growing up. Without even thinking about it, that is what just popped in my mind growing up. With regards to families in eternity I haven’t quite figured out the difference between a couple that stay together by a “law of binding” and a couple or family that chooses to be together without a “law of binding”. Any thoughts Old-Timer or anyone else?
Test tube spirits?!
alaskaboy19 wrote:Do we believe that all of us get special kudos, because we were actually part of the less-than-one-percent that actually accepted the church on earth?
No, I don’t think so, but I suspect we might get kudos for having questioned life and sought for its meaning. Those who do not do this, are dead already in a very real way.
Quote:Test tube spirits?!
lol SamBee. Actually when this we discussed in my ward latter growing up by the bishop, SP and HPT. It was continually talked about as our spirits existing without form and we looked to god who had form and wanted to be like him with his form. So using gods knowledge he put our spirits to form. I never heard anyone else give a different version of it. Sounds very scientific to me. Which is how I tend to view god, not so much magical but with perfect knowledge and wisdom. I include the big bang and evolution as a process(knowledge god knew in which it had to be done but didn’t reveal to us until we were ready)not exactly test tubes, but far from spiritual biological procreation. At least that is what I accept based on the evidence we have now along with what I was taught at church growing up.
canucknuckle, this is one of the posts that deals with the paradox of vicarious work.
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