CES fireside and SSA

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Let us be clear tonight. The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints believes that the experience of same sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they choose how to respond to them.

So, just asking for clarification… but what is it about this that is the issue? I think this is exactly what the Church has been saying for a few years now. There doesn’t seem to be anything new or shocking in the statement, and certainly nothing that will have to be scrubbed? The quote you transcribed says that SSA is not a sin and it says it is not a choice. Sincerely asking because I want to understand you (we all have flashpoints, I know I do).

As for the policy itself, I completely agree, and I’ve been pretty vocal about it. I think it’s a no-win approach to say to SSA people that they are equally loved by God, so long as they stay celibate. We eventually will get to the point where same gender marriage is just a part of life in the Church, but it will take some time, it will cause some pain, it will bring some embarrassment onto the Church… the more ‘some’ time it takes, the more ‘some’ pain it will cause and the more ‘some’ embarrassment it will bring.

[Anonymous]

I originally decided to close the window before committing the post, but why not post it:

The line is SSA is not a sin but acting on it is. What other sexual desires or other aspects of the natural man fall into this category? For years I’ve heard:

Quote:

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

And the numerous talks and lessons on keeping our thoughts pure because 1) you are judged for your thoughts and 2) thoughts become actions.

I recognize that SSA is an entirely separate issue that’s apart from thinking about what you’d like to do about it. Still, all those guilt trips over the inadvertent thoughts that come to your head as a hormone laden raw nerve during the teenage years. That and working entirely within the realm of fantasy is all that is left for someone with SSA to remain in good standing with church authorities.

[Anonymous]

I find it contradictory that “it is not good for man to be alone” …unless that man happens to be gay. I also have not seen good scriptural support for the current position, but I would be open to hearing it.

My problem with fighting SSM across the country comes from the position of the 11th article of faith.

[Anonymous]

On Own Now wrote:

Quote:

Let us be clear tonight. The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints believes that the experience of same sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they choose how to respond to them.

So, just asking for clarification… but what is it about this that is the issue? I think this is exactly what the Church has been saying for a few years now. There doesn’t seem to be anything new or shocking in the statement, and certainly nothing that will have to be scrubbed? The quote you transcribed says that SSA is not a sin and it says it is not a choice. Sincerely asking because I want to understand you (we all have flashpoints, I know I do).

As for the policy itself, I completely agree, and I’ve been pretty vocal about it. I think it’s a no-win approach to say to SSA people that they are equally loved by God, so long as they stay celibate. We eventually will get to the point where same gender marriage is just a part of life in the Church, but it will take some time, it will cause some pain, it will bring some embarrassment onto the Church… the more ‘some’ time it takes, the more ‘some’ pain it will cause and the more ‘some’ embarrassment it will bring.

You hit the issue for me OON. I think it’s terribly unfair and incorrect for the church to say that a person has no choice about his or her sexuality, but if your sexuality is homosexuality you can’t have sex under any circumstances, married or not. I believe in the law of chastity, I agree with the BYU honor code to the extent it disallows sex outside marriage. It is a no win situation for those with SSA.

As a YMP I worked very closely with two young men in our ward who are gay (they are a couple years different in age) who I didn’t know at the time were gay. I developed a true Christian love for these guys, they were my friends. I felt their testimonies, I know they are good people and believe in a loving God and in his Son and they are talented and loving people themselves. Both have “chosen” to live in same sex relationships and neither of them are part of the church (although they are members). I think it is very much like the priesthood ban. If Christ himself really does direct this church, how can he allow the leadership to deny these great people what the rest of us have because of something they have no control over?

And I agree the church has been saying this for awhile – usually apostles don’t say it, though. I could very well see there being a little different wording in an official transcript, particularly in the line about it not being a choice.

(You will note that I don’t normally use the word “know” and generally substitute “believe” in it’s place. I highlight it if I do use it as a TBM would – in this case, I do know this about these guys.)

[Anonymous]

From the fireside… Note the great mustache behind Elder Ballard:

[attachment=0]ballard.jpg[/attachment]

[Anonymous]

Elder Ballard from the fireside:

Quote:

Let us be clear tonight. The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints believes that the experience of same sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including those with same sex attraction.

mormonsandgays.org (front page at the top, under the heading “Where the Church stands”):

Quote:

The experience of same sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

The text on mormonsandgays.org goes back well ahead of the fireside. I found a reference to the page, with the entire quote in an article in BYU’s “Digital Universe” introducing the website, in December, 2012. Elder Ballard just added the nearly exact quote into his talk.

[Anonymous]

On Own Now wrote:

Elder Ballard from the fireside:

Quote:

Let us be clear tonight. The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints believes that the experience of same sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including those with same sex attraction.

mormonsandgays.org (front page at the top, under the heading “Where the Church stands”):

Quote:

The experience of same sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.

The text on mormonsandgays.org goes back well ahead of the fireside. I found a reference to the page, with the entire quote in an article in BYU’s “Digital Universe” introducing the website, in December, 2012. Elder Ballard just added the nearly exact quote into his talk.

Good. Now it will be on LDS.org. I’ve been waiting for this.

No, it’s not a big step. Yes, it’s 2014 for heavens sake. These are small victories. But small victories that help.

People were saying in the past that the attraction is a choice. Now we have a leader officially saying it’s not.

[Anonymous]

OK, it looks like it may not get scrubbed – all that much better. I’m not sure this is at all what Elder Ballard intended, but I thank him for saying this as an apostle.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

OK, it looks like it may not get scrubbed – all that much better. I’m not sure this is at all what Elder Ballard intended, but I thank him for saying this as an apostle.

Thanks for finding it.

Given he’s quoting perfectly from the mormonsandgays.org website I would suggest he is saying exactly what he means to say.

[Anonymous]

First this response will be long. It is a quote from Chieko Okazaki. There are key points that I wish the church, it’s leadership, and it’s media would pick up and use as their response to SSA-etc. I can’t fix all of it. Like most of you I know it will take time, but the church could live by Chieko’s words and heal so many.

Quote:

I don’t want anyone to misunderstand what I am going to say next. The First Presidency has made its opposition to same-sex marriage very clear: as a member of the Church, I support them fully in their position. But I want to stress that we can be opposed to a piece of legislation or to a practice and still behave with courtesy and decency toward those who hold other opinions. I would not want anyone to use the First Presidency’s stand as an excuse for being hateful or disrespectful toward others.

When I was a member of the Relief Society General Presidency, I had the opportunity of speaking privately with many men and women, mostly women, who struggled with feelings of homosexuality. It’s been wonderful for me to learn to separate the worth of the individual from any particular behavior, and to feel how deeply and keenly God loves each individual. I don’t have to approve of any particular behavior, but I also don’t have to judge people. I know that God loves them. By not judging, I can feel that love for them in my own heart.

It is very likely that every person in the Church knows someone – a family member or a friend – who is gay, lesbian, or bisexualy. I also think it is very likely that many people do not know that they know a homosexual, bisexual person because that person is afraid to reveal that part of himself or herself for fear of being rejected, punished, or excluded.I think there is much we do not understand about how such conditions come to be, or what resources are truly helpful.In the meantime, nothing has suspended the commandment of Jesus to love one another and to bear one another’s burdens.

I know this topic will take a long time to shift, but if more statements were like hers were made, I think we as a people, as a religion and as Zion strivers could move mountains in peoples souls.

[Anonymous]

mom3 wrote:

First this response will be long. It is a quote from Chieko Okazaki. There are key points that I wish the church, it’s leadership, and it’s media would pick up and use as their response to SSA-etc. I can’t fix all of it. Like most of you I know it will take time, but the church could live by Chieko’s words and heal so many.

Quote:

I don’t want anyone to misunderstand what I am going to say next. The First Presidency has made its opposition to same-sex marriage very clear: as a member of the Church, I support them fully in their position. But I want to stress that we can be opposed to a piece of legislation or to a practice and still behave with courtesy and decency toward those who hold other opinions. I would not want anyone to use the First Presidency’s stand as an excuse for being hateful or disrespectful toward others.

When I was a member of the Relief Society General Presidency, I had the opportunity of speaking privately with many men and women, mostly women, who struggled with feelings of homosexuality. It’s been wonderful for me to learn to separate the worth of the individual from any particular behavior, and to feel how deeply and keenly God loves each individual. I don’t have to approve of any particular behavior, but I also don’t have to judge people. I know that God loves them. By not judging, I can feel that love for them in my own heart.

It is very likely that every person in the Church knows someone – a family member or a friend – who is gay, lesbian, or bisexualy. I also think it is very likely that many people do not know that they know a homosexual, bisexual person because that person is afraid to reveal that part of himself or herself for fear of being rejected, punished, or excluded.I think there is much we do not understand about how such conditions come to be, or what resources are truly helpful.In the meantime, nothing has suspended the commandment of Jesus to love one another and to bear one another’s burdens.

I know this topic will take a long time to shift, but if more statements were like hers were made, I think we as a people, as a religion and as Zion strivers could move mountains in peoples souls.

Great quote! She seems such a great mind. I wish we’d had more of her time and influence in leadership.

So you have a source please?

[Anonymous]

Yes – Chieko N. Okazaki – book is Disciples pgs. 121-123. Chapter Good Measure, Pressed Down, and Running Over.

If you don’t mind I finished reading the piece after posted and it gets even better.

Quote:

I think the point I am making is clear. As with every controversy, I think there is great potential for division, for anger, and even for hatred. It would hurt me to have Mormons thought of as people who are “against”, people who hate, people who call you names and ostracize. Can you seek out a friend who disagrees with you on this issue and share a meal together in respect and love? Can you redouble your kindness to the gays and lesbians whom you know, as a witness to them of the love of Christ and his power to transform a heart?

As members of the Church, we have a clear position on the issue of same-sex marriages. It is right that we should defend this position vigorously. But as members of the Church of Jesus Christ we also have a clear position on the worth and value of each human soul. Let us also defend that position with equal energy, for it is the pure love of Christ, or charity,which Moroni tells us we should pray for with all energy of soul.

[Anonymous]

Thank you, outstanding

Feel free to post the whole lot over to our quotes thread. I know it’s one I’ll want to return to.

[Anonymous]

Mackay – you beat me to the punch. Thanks for posting it over on the quotes wall. I was fully planning on doing it this evening. I appreciate you easing my night activities. Thank you.

[Anonymous]

mom3 wrote:

Mackay – you beat me to the punch. Thanks for posting it over on the quotes wall. I was fully planning on doing it this evening. I appreciate you easing my night activities. Thank you.

Don’t worry, I wasn’t being impatient, just needed the quote for another conversation so copied it while looking it up.

[Author]

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