CES LETTER

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

dingobex wrote:

But what about the fact freemasonry started in solomons temple? At least that’s what I was told.

I’d place the origins of freemasonry in the camp of myth and legend more that fact. I think many scholars believe freemasonry originated in the middle ages, where the legend of Solomon’s Temple was more of an allegory (that some take literally – sound familiar ).

There are masons who will clearly say, “No, freemasonry was not started in Solomon’s temple.”

[Anonymous]

@ dingobex

I found this article to be very informative, and it’s an actual Masonic source:

http://www.jjcrowder743.com/history.html” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.jjcrowder743.com/history.html

After you peruse the article, I’m sure you will agree with the author of this article that no one knows, and there are only theories.

Of course the LDS church will have these ‘theories’ imbedded in ‘revelation’ That’s when “the thinking has been done,” and there is no longer any need to wonder like others have to–we know!

As of interest, I was on a BYU travel tour to Egypt many years ago, and we had the opportunity to visit one of the more remote, ancient temples. The LDS tour leader pointed out some aspects of the figures in the reliefs that were carved in the temple walls and had us note the similarity to temple clothing and the arm and hand positions of some of these relief figures. He also stated that in one of the rooms of this temple we walked into, which had numerous columns very close to each other, all of these columns would have been elaborately painted ‘back in the day’ so as to look like a forest, hence ‘a garden room’ just like what is to be found in an LDS temple. Wow! I thought at the time. He also told us that another room we visited was the ‘Holy of Holies’ wherein only the Pharaoh and his queen were allowed to go and “make covenants” to be eternally espoused (sealed) to be king and queen in the eternities of the afterlife. We were told that all of this (and more!) was a bastardization of what Abraham had revealed to the Pharaoh when he was in Egypt, but the Pharaoh wanted God’s priesthood power only for himself and his household, and for his own agenda. Obviously, then, he was not worthy, so when Abraham left Egypt the Pharaoh made up his own ‘religion’ patterned after God’s. Mmm…seems like quite the believable story, eh!

At the time I was TBM all the way and bought this stuff hook, line and sinker. However, go talk to an Egyptologist (a REAL one) and compare what he has to say about this information (assessment) to that of this LDS tour leader. I’ll leave you with this ‘homework’ in order for you to come to your own conclusions, i.e., don’t let me, nor anyone else, do “the thinking” for you.

Peace.

P.S. Would have really enjoyed having you ‘at the table’!

[Anonymous]

My relatives were Masons (and not Mormons), and they were from an older generation who really did believe that their rituals came from Solomon’s temple. Doubtless so did founding fathers like George Washington. Since credible sources for the origin of these things don’t go back more than the 1700s, it’s not known but very unlikely.

As for the CES letter, there’s stuff in it that’s troubling, but it’s basically a word vomit. It’s full of questions that are really accusations. Nearly all that is in there is stuff compiled from elsewhere. I didn’t really find it new or unique. It was more like a screen scrape of a bunch of other things. Some of that stuff is more troubling than others. When it comes to history, I think it’s valuable to remember that scholars for centuries believed that the city of Troy was mythical like Atlantis, and then they found it. I’m not saying that the BOM is definitely historical, but most of the things the CES letter “debunks” are the theories people in the church have put forward to “prove” that the BOM was historical in a specific time and place. Debunking a theory isn’t the same thing as debunking a thing itself. The BOM is complicated whether literature, fiction or history. It’s filled with unreliable narrators and contradictory viewpoints, overlapping perspectives. It’s not my favorite book, but it is more than the sum of its parts and not as easily dismissed as any of the theories people have speculated to attempt to prove it. Dismissing those theories as childish and simplistic is the easy part. The problem is that CES is itself prone to simplistic and childish explanations. So addressing the letter to CES is appropo.

[Anonymous]

@hawkgrrrl

Quote:

“It was more like a screen scrape”

– hawkgrrrl

LOL– ‘cut and paste’, right? I like it. Is it yours?

How about considering this along with a ‘mind stretch, which goes hand-in-hand with another kind of ‘mind’– a ‘mind ___’?

I remember years ago attending a lecture by Hugh Nibley saying, “There is far, far more that we don’t know [and never will], than what we do.”

So sure, in reference to Troy anything is possible, but you have to consider all of the many red flags that have surfaced, which are not mind stretches, and of which there is a lot to ‘scrape’ in iLand, and garnered from a lot of well written (researched) books, and interesting interviews.

This, and not to discount the “spirit of discernment”, regardless of being either that of a ‘real’ supernatural, divine source, or just plain logic of the heart/mind, or both.

Nevertheless, perhaps Swami Vivekananda was on to something when he affirmed, “I accept all the religions of the past, and I worship God with them all. I leave my heart open to those of the future.”

Peace.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Nevertheless, perhaps Swami Vivekananda was on to something when he affirmed, “I accept all the religions of the past, and I worship God with them all. I leave my heart open to those of the future.”

:thumbup:

[Anonymous]

I just saw that “ChurchisTrue” on this site just released his “objective review of the CES letter”. http://www.churchistrue.com/blog/ces-letter/” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.churchistrue.com/blog/ces-letter/

I think he did a very good job. I think you did a very even-handed overview and it appears to me he was willing to call a spade a spade on both sides – and say “it could go either way” on a few topics.

I only could call out on the section, “Church’s whitewashing of history” that after listening to

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2017/01/extra-radio-free-mormon-denying-church-history/” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2017/01/extra-radio-free-mormon-denying-church-history/ and especially http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2016/11/extra-radio-free-mormon-hiding-church-history/” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2016/11/extra-radio-free-mormon-hiding-church-history/

I just can’t say that there were not some of the Q15 that knew of these issues and activly supressed them.

But good job ChurchisTrue. We need more of this thoughtful discussion and fewer extremists (TBM’s that label everything “anti” and angry ex-mo’s that want to burn the whole church down).

[Anonymous]

Morzen wrote:

I was on a BYU travel tour to Egypt many years ago, and we had the opportunity to visit one of the more remote, ancient temples. The LDS tour leader pointed out some aspects of the figures in the reliefs that were carved in the temple walls and had us note the similarity to temple clothing and the arm and hand positions of some of these relief figures. He also stated that in one of the rooms of this temple we walked into, which had numerous columns very close to each other, all of these columns would have been elaborately painted ‘back in the day’ so as to look like a forest, hence ‘a garden room’ just like what is to be found in an LDS temple. Wow! I thought at the time. He also told us that another room we visited was the ‘Holy of Holies’ wherein only the Pharaoh and his queen were allowed to go and “make covenants” to be eternally espoused (sealed) to be king and queen in the eternities of the afterlife. We were told that all of this (and more!) was a bastardization of what Abraham had revealed to the Pharaoh when he was in Egypt, but the Pharaoh wanted God’s priesthood power only for himself and his household, and for his own agenda. Obviously, then, he was not worthy, so when Abraham left Egypt the Pharaoh made up his own ‘religion’ patterned after God’s. Mmm…seems like quite the believable story, eh!

Funny that you mention this place in Egypt. My bishop was just telling me about this place a few weeks ago, as ‘proof’ that they were practicing our current temple endowment was back in ancient Egypt. Do you (or anybody else) know that name of this place in Egypt? I’m hoping to study more about it, and get an actual Egyptologist description of these figures, if possible.

As far as the CES Letter, when I first read it, I found it troubling. Not because it had a lot of information that I didn’t know about, but because it touched on many of the issues that I was already struggling with at the time. I felt some relief that I wasn’t the only one worried about those issues, while also feeling very concerned that I wasn’t the only one worried about those issues. As others have said, I don’t take it too seriously because of the ‘gotcha’ tone that the author takes. I have since moved past things like the CES Letter, and focus more on my own relationship with God, and don’t worry so much about issues that other people are choosing to focus on, especially if their sole intentions seem to be negative. Studying is a good thing, but remember to focus on your own faith rather than on somebody else’s faith.

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