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I am not by any stretch a Pollyanna, but this just has to be said again: The LDS Church is NOT falling apart the way many disaffected members make it sound.Numerical growth is steady, and the activity rate actually is higher overall than it was at the beginning of the century – and the losses as a percent of membership aren’t nearly as high as they were when the Church was smaller, as well. I understand the issues we discuss here about challenges to growth, but we are talking about a religion founded on a difficult mythology (and I don’t mean untruth) for this modern time – as well as a religion that requires MUCH more of its active members than most other religions. Further, with the exception of a couple of stories in our canonized scriptures, there never has been a time when “The Church” was the majority of a major population.
What I’m saying simply is that I believe those who are doomsday-ing the state of the LDS Church aren’t doing so based on the reality of the situation as a whole. There are plenty of things I wish were different, especially in the Intermountain West dominant culture, but I also hear messages constantly from the global leadership that address many of those cultural issues. There are areas where I think we have strayed from the pure Gospel, but I see that as part of the inevitable ebb and flow of all organizations (including religions)that we also have recorded in scripture.
Part of the reason I am not as pessimistic as some is that I EXPECT a degree of “apostasy” in the Church – like the pruning descriptions in Jacob 5. I don’t see any way around that, based on everything I know of history – and I’ve studied a lot of history and comparative religion. Imo, that ebb and flow simply is part and parcel of mortality; it simply “IS”. I don’t expect the Church ever to be perfectly pure or to dominate the world, so I’m not bothered when it isn’t and doesn’t.
I just know enough of the “big picture”, if you will, to understand that the Church is not in a downward spiral. It’s holding it’s own in an increasingly secular, non-religious world – when literally every other denomination that requires even close to the time and energy it does is not maintaining like it is.
I don’t mean to offend at all in saying this, but a tree falling in a small grove of trees makes a terrible racket and is frightening; that same tree falling in a huge forest doesn’t even register over a comparatively minor distance within that forest.
I don’t want any trees to fall. I mean that sincerely and passionately.However, the fact that some trees do, in fact, fall doesn’t mean the forest is disappearing. Half of my family of origin left the church in the last two years so, in my world, it feels like the forest is disappearing. But, I actually agree with Ray. I think we were a perfect storm-like situation. I can also envision that many members in previous generations would have just left the church but I see the possibility for people to get past stage 3 and 4 and actually stay in the church. That seems more possible now than ever. Not sure how that will look on the ground but there’s lots of opportunity and any organization worth it’s salt will figure that out over time. Old-Timer wrote:The LDS Church is NOT falling apart the way many disaffected members make it sound…What I’m saying simply is that I believe those who are doomsday-ing the state of the LDS Church aren’t doing so based on the reality of the situation as a whole.
…Part of the reason I am not as pessimistic as some is that I EXPECT a degree of “apostasy” in the Church…the Church is not in a downward spiral. It’s holding it’s own in an increasingly secular, non-religious world…the fact that some trees do, in fact, fall doesn’t mean the forest is disappearing.
Just for the record, I don’t think the Church is falling apart in an obvious and catastrophic way; I think it’s more of a gradual erosion of the base where active members are being slowly whittled away. It could take several generations to fully realize some of the residual effects of the current losses but by that time it could be too late to regain some of what we have now with the communities and positive social influence of the Church.
I think this forest analogy is typical of many Church leaders’ attitude where they don’t really care that much about all the members who have fallen away because they assume they are insignificant and completely wrong to think that way. The idea is that this is nothing new that there have always been inactive members and apostates because of the constant influence of Satan but overall the work is still moving forward right on schedule.
The reason I disagree with this idea is that the tables have turned somewhat in recent years due to the internet, more books on Mormon history, and more atheist evangelists challenging religion in general. Basically, I don’t believe the Church is poised to compete as well as possible in the current environment. What’s worse is that the reason for this predicament is not necessarily as noble as many Mormons would like to believe such as standing up for what is right or true.
It looks more like a case where they simply started out with this prophet and restoration story and once they saw that it gave them some control to be able to tell their followers what to do they just kept on building on this assumption and making even more demands while trying to deny or suppress any challenges to these claims at all costs.
Old-Timer wrote:
…we are talking about a religion founded on a difficult mythology (and I don’t mean untruth) for this modern time – as well as a religion that requires MUCH more of its active members than most other religions.…There are plenty of things I wish were different, especially in the Intermountain West dominant culture, but I also hear messages constantly from the global leadership that address many of those cultural issues. There are areas where I think we have strayed from the pure Gospel, but I see that as part of the inevitable ebb and flow of all organizations
…the Church is not in a downward spiral. It’s holding it’s own in an increasingly secular, non-religious world – when literally every other denomination that requires even close to the time and energy it does is not maintaining like it is.
The problem is that some of these strict requirements and expectations are starting to look increasingly unreasonable to too many existing members and would-be converts. For example, to be fully accepted into the club by many TBMs you basically need to agree with all of the following:
1. The Books of Mormon, Abraham, and Moses contain true history and were divinely inspired. These books and the D&C are superior to the Bible as the “Word of God” because they didn’t have the same errors of transmission and translation.
2. Joseph Smith’s restoration of the gospel is the best thing to happen since Jesus.
3. The only divinely approved line of succession and authority was transmitted through Brigham Young and other LDS prophets and apostles making the LDS church the one and only “true church.”
4. Paying the Church a full 10% of your income as tithing is required for salvation.
5. Complete abstinence from alcohol, tobacco, tea, and coffee is mandatory for salvation.
6. Spending a significant amount of time for meetings, callings, temple work, etc. is required for salvation.
To me this looks too much like a house of cards because there are so many ways that this structure is likely to break down and fail for way too many different people. The Church has put such a strong emphasis on all of these points that any one of them can be an absolute deal-breaker for serious investigators and existing members who actually like the Church but just can’t stomach one or more of these hard-line doctrines.
I don’t have a problem with TBMs believing in all of this but what I think is completely wrong is some of the intolerance and disrespect for those who have a harder time buying into all these beliefs. It doesn’t make any sense to me why fellowship in a church that professes to be Christian should depend so much on all these additional doctrines to the point that many members have actually been excommunicated for openly disagreeing with some of them.
DA – I agree with you, and I am also concerned that we are/and will continue to lose, at an alarming rate, a lot of talent (great men and women) and that if things do not change, the church will not even realize the extent of the damage for at least 20 years. DevilsAdvocate wrote:The problem is that some of these strict requirements and expectations are starting to look increasingly unreasonable to too many existing members and would-be converts. For example, to be fully accepted into the club by many TBMs you basically need to agree with all of the following:
1. The Books of Mormon, Abraham, and Moses contain true history and were divinely inspired. These books and the D&C are superior to the Bible as the “Word of God” because they didn’t have the same errors of transmission and translation.
2. Joseph Smith’s restoration of the gospel is the best thing to happen since Jesus.
3. The only divinely approved line of succession and authority was transmitted through Brigham Young and other LDS prophets and apostles making the LDS church the one and only “true church.”
4. Paying the Church a full 10% of your income as tithing is required for salvation.
5. Complete abstinence from alcohol, tobacco, tea, and coffee is mandatory for salvation.
6. Spending a significant amount of time for meetings, callings, temple work, etc. is required for salvation.
To me this looks too much like a house of cards because there are so many ways that this structure is likely to break down and fail for way too many different people. The Church has put such a strong emphasis on all of these points that any one of them can be an absolute deal-breaker for serious investigators and existing members who actually like the Church but just can’t stomach one or more of these hard-line doctrines.
Yeah, great observation. I think it is interesting that SL took many of these statements out of the gospel principles manual, and then sent it back to the members to study again this year. It no longer states (in GP) that you have to do all this stuff for salvation – it’s gone from the manual. Now it just says, “you must keep the commandments.” So are the brethern seeing a future problem as well with this house of cards that we have built from decades of cultural practice an control? Are they trying to pull back on the reigns, but the general membership, culture and climate refuses to change? And perhaps most importantly, now that it is no longer in the GP, does that mean it is no longer consider “doctrine” and should not be taught in class, and are we now “allowed” and even encouraged to decide for ourselves if we want to believe and practice every word written in the D&C, and what it means to “keep the commandments?”
DevilsAdvocate wrote:Just for the record, I don’t think the Church is falling apart in an obvious and catastrophic way; I think it’s more of a gradual erosion of the base where active members are being slowly whittled away. It could take several generations to fully realize some of the residual effects of the current losses but by that time it could be too late to regain some of what we have now with the communities and positive social influence of the Church.
I think this forest analogy is typical of many Church leaders’ attitude where they don’t really care that much about all the members who have fallen away because they assume they are insignificant and completely wrong to think that way. The idea is that this is nothing new that there have always been inactive members and apostates because of the constant influence of Satan but overall the work is still moving forward right on schedule.
The reason I disagree with this idea is that the tables have turned somewhat in recent years due to the internet, more books on Mormon history, and more atheist evangelists challenging religion in general. Basically, I don’t believe the Church is poised to compete as well as possible in the current environment. What’s worse is that the reason for this predicament is not necessarily as noble as many Mormons would like to believe such as standing up for what is right or true.
It looks more like a case where they simply started out with this prophet and restoration story and once they saw that it gave them some control to be able to tell their followers what to do they just kept on building on this assumption and making even more demands while trying to deny or suppress any challenges to these claims at all costs.
Okay, i think this is well said DA, and let me add two cents. The problem I see with this (WIDELY used in the ranks) forest analogy is that it is dangerous because we don’t take into account the residual effect of losing “a few” of the top notch leaders and members from a local branch or ward. We preach the other way though – a convert who joins the church is going to change hundredss or even thousands of lives as his kids and grand-kids and so on become active faithful members throughout the decades. The same principle applies to those who become inactive. Oh, I suppose it gets taught in Sunday school class some, but we still hear BRM echos of “The Caravan Moves ON” from many members and local leaders. What does it matter if a few barking dogs snap at the heels of the weary travelers? Or that predators claim those few who fall by the way? Another one of my LEAST favorite talks of all time.
Excepts from The Caravan Moves ON. BRM Ensign Nov 1984
Quote:I propose some simple tests that all of us may take to determine if we are true to the faith. They consist of a few basic questions, all of which must be answered correctly in order to gain the full blessings of the gospel in this life and inherit eternal life in the realms ahead…From among many questions that all of us must one day answer, let me test you on these:…
…Test two: Do I believe in the fall of Adam? There is no salvation in a system of religion that rejects the doctrine of the Fall or that assumes man is the end product of evolution and so was not subject to a fall. True believers know that this earth and man and all forms of life were created in an Edenic, or paradisiacal, state in which there was no mortality, no procreation, no death…
…Test five: Do I believe the gospel as it has been restored in this final dispensation of grace?
…Test six: Am I a faithful member of the true Church?…There is no such thing as gaining salvation from a false god, or by conforming to a false plan of salvation, or through membership in a false church. Truth—pure, diamond truth—truth unmixed with error, truth and truth alone can lead a soul to salvation.
…Test seven: Do I honor Joseph Smith as the great prophet of the Restoration?
…A wise cleric of a former day leaves us this counsel: “If you have not chosen the kingdom of God first, it will in the end make no difference what you have chosen instead.”…With us, in this life and in the life to come, it is and should be the kingdom of God or nothing.
…On every issue it behooves us to determine what the Lord would have us do and what counsel he has given through the appointed officers of his kingdom on earth. No true Latter-day Saint will ever take a stand that is in opposition to what the Lord has revealed to those who direct the affairs of his earthly kingdom. No Latter-day Saint who is true and faithful in all things will ever pursue a course, or espouse a cause, or publish an article or book that weakens or destroys faith. There is, in fact, no such thing as neutrality where the gospel is concerned….If we do not sustain and uphold and support the kingdom of God in all things, we are thereby aiding a cause other than the Lord’s. Only the valiant are saved. Members of the Church who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus, not valiant in the cause of Christ, not valiant in defense of his prophets and in preaching his word are not heirs of the celestial kingdom….These, then, are a few of the many tests of true discipleship.
The Church is like a great caravan—organized, prepared, following an appointed course, with its captains of tens and captains of hundreds all in place. What does it matter if a few barking dogs snap at the heels of the weary travelers? Or that predators claim those few who fall by the way? The caravan moves on. Is there a ravine to cross, a miry mud hole to pull through, a steep grade to climb? So be it. The oxen are strong and the teamsters wise. The caravan moves on. Are there storms that rage along the way, floods that wash away the bridges, deserts to cross, and rivers to ford? Such is life in this fallen sphere. The caravan moves on. Ahead is the celestial city, the eternal Zion of our God, where all who maintain their position in the caravan shall find food and drink and rest. Thank God that the caravan moves on!
My regional representative told me face to face the night prior to the California vote regarding Proposition 8, that the church would never be the same again. I believe him. It’s why I wrote a resignation letter within days. STAYLDS has allowed the letter to remain in my Dodge Dakota jockey box, but I have not thrown it away. If you have a gay child, the issue becomes a defining moment in who you are. I am a father first. My unconditional love & acceptance is heartfelt, and will never change. If people I love are attacked, I will attack back. As the father of a famed Western family once observed, “Blood’s blood and not much else matters.” (see Gunfight at OK Corral). Shalom. PS: The article I was replying to doesn’t seem to be posted any longer. So if my statement seems disconnected, it is because the reference disappeared. I add no more, senility is chasing me again…
I had always thought, or assumed, that church growth was inevitable and that declining church membership (by number) wasn’t a huge concern for church leaders. After a conversation with a general authority, however, I realized clearly that the church leaders are very concerned with stagnant growth in the years to come. Specifically, this leader talked about the decrease in the number of available missionaries as a result of the “raising of the bar” as well as fewer youth available because members are having fewer children. I got the impression that these were serious concerns for the “brethren”. Despite the church’s reported or apparent attempts to baptize fewer or less quickly, I sure have not observed that ideal among the missionaries I’ve talked to recently. As anyone that has been in the church a while realizes, the decision to baptize or wait (for an investigator adult) falls on the shoulders of a district leader missionary, rather than a local leader or bishop or anything. Missionaries are, by nature and training, usually exuberant, and will baptize more often than wait. These missionaries WANT to be involved in the conversion process, so it’s important to them to get the investigator in the water. So, despite the church’s reported efforts otherwise, I haven’t really seen a big difference in this process and think too much is left to the discretion of one young man. Missionaries with presidents focusing a lot on output or performance are usually even more eager than average to baptize early and often.
One of the obvious things is that they keep proselytizing in Christian communities, and that there’s been too much of an emphasis IMHO on getting people who are already active church goers (somewhere else). I know this is changing… but… In the west, with the exception of the United States, church attendance has been falling rapidly. Most of the people who go to church here are 60+ now. So, when that goes, they’re going to need a radically new tack, and cannot assume people will be au fait with the Bible or general church practicies, before they become LDS.
There also seems to be a higher take up rate in Protestant, rather than RC communities (with the major exception of Latin America)
I know there’s been some success in Japan which is a mainly non-Christian country, but with a million or so Christians. I would like to know how many of the Japanese converts were already going to another church…
Quote:I would like to know how many of the Japanese converts were already going to another church…
On my mission in Japan, almost none were. One had been meeting with the Jehovah’s Witnesses for three years without being baptized, but the vast majority were not attending another church.
Interesting. I have certainly noticed a difference here in the past twenty years. People here are a lot less familiar with the Bible than they used to be. A few decades ago, missionaries would have been able to say “Thessalonians” to someone, and the person would know it was in the New Testament. On a radio quiz the other day, someone couldn’t even name the four gospel writers… I thought Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were common knowledge.
Maybe this means some preconceptions are gone. But it also means another tack must be used.
cwald wrote:Okay, i think this is well said DA, and let me add two cents. The problem I see with this (WIDELY used in the ranks) forest analogy is that it is dangerous because we don’t take into account the residual effect of losing “a few” of the top notch leaders and members from a local branch or ward. We preach the other way though – a convert who joins the church is going to change hundredss or even thousands of lives as his kids and grand-kids and so on become active faithful members throughout the decades. The same principle applies to those who become inactive. Oh, I suppose it gets taught in Sunday school class some, but we still hear BRM echos of “The Caravan Moves ON” from many members and local leaders. What does it matter if a few barking dogs snap at the heels of the weary travelers? Or that predators claim those few who fall by the way? Another one of my LEAST favorite talks of all time.
Excepts from The Caravan Moves ON. BRM Ensign Nov 1984
Quote:…let me test you on these:…
…Test two: Do I believe in the fall of Adam? There is no salvation in a system of religion that rejects the doctrine of the Fall or that assumes man is the end product of evolution and so was not subject to a fall. True believers know that this earth and man and all forms of life were created in an Edenic, or paradisiacal, state in which there was no mortality, no procreation, no death…
…No true Latter-day Saint will ever take a stand that is in opposition to what the Lord has revealed to those who direct the affairs of his earthly kingdom. No Latter-day Saint who is true and faithful in all things will ever pursue a course, or espouse a cause, or publish an article or book that weakens or destroys faith.
…What does it matter if a few barking dogs snap at the heels of the weary travelers? Or that predators claim those few who fall by the way? The caravan moves on.
I don’t know what Bruce R. McConkie’s obsession with the idea of “no death before the fall” and calling evolution a “heresy” was. Similar to Joseph Fielding Smith, he seemed to believe that there was this long chain of events where everything absolutely depended on “no death before the fall” as if there was no point for us to even exist if this idea was not the gospel truth. Thanks to McConkie, this “no death before the fall” idea is still in the LDS Bible Dictionary under “Death” even though it isn’t official Church doctrine.
This highlights another sustainability problem with the Church: some members and leaders try to read way too much into the supposed “revealed word of God.” The assumption is that this all came directly from God so it must be right. This kind of strict literal interpretation of traditionally accepted scriptures can easily paint us into a corner for no good reason and then scientists will probably keep digging up more evidence against some of these long-held assumptions. The result is that some of these beliefs will require increasing levels of denial of outside information in order to continue to support them.
I read somewhere that based on one poll Mormons were the 2nd least likely to believe in evolution right behind the Jehovah’s Witnesses and I have heard several TBMs saying how they don’t trust carbon dating either. If people want to deny that the majority of scientists have any idea what they are talking about that’s their choice but what about the next generation? We can try to home-school our children and maybe even ban the internet but sooner or later most members are probably going to hear about evolution one way or another. I’m not so sure that trying to insist that Adam was literally the first man is going to work out very well over the long run.
There’s a new religious study published with some interesting things to note: http: //www.americanreligionsurvey-aris.org/reports/ARIS_Report_2008.pdf ” class=”bbcode_url”> //www.americanreligionsurvey-aris.org/reports/ARIS_Report_2008.pdf – over the last 20 years, the % of the population that self-identifies as Christian went down from 86% to 76%.
– non-denominational Christian is on the rise, with most mainline protestant sects (even Baptists) declining significantly.
– only 70% of Americans believe in a “personal” God. 12% are deists (God, but not personal), 12% are atheists (no God) or agnostic (unknown or unknowable).
– those professing no religion have risen from 8% to 15% in the last 20 years.
– Mormons & Catholics are holding fairly steady as a percentage of the US population, a pretty big accomplishment despite the changing landscape.
This gets right to the crux of the topic…can the church continue its growth and strength if 1) a member does not believe many dogmatic teachings of (particularly past, but also present) church leaders, and 2) if one does not believe he/she must attend/receive the temple ordinances to “make it to the best place in heaven” in the next life? Let’s face it…a very strong motivation for active members to pay a full tithing is that it is required for a temple recommend — which is required to get to that highest degree of the CK. Those tithes are helpful for running (and growing) the church. If the need to attend the temple was softened, revenues feasibly could decline dramatically. I know the church is in good financial health — particularly with a lay (volunteer) ministry at the local level — but I’m sure they don’t want to see a decline in the revenue stream….
So I see the transition of beliefs from the staunch, one and only true church and authority to redeem the dead, etc…to a more metaphorical, take what is good and leave the rest sort of approach, a bit problematic. I find the juggling of approaches between the two camps interesting. I don’t claim to have a crystal ball to know how the dust will settle, but I think we are having a dramatic shift in faith in the members towards the metaphorical.
But I could be wrong.
Fwiw, the evolution question DA references was worded as follows – to the best of my memory: Quote:“Evolution is the best explanation for the origin of human life.”
It’s no wonder the vast majority of Mormons answered, “No.” That would be my own answer to that question, and I accept that our bodies probably are the result of evolution.
I’m not saying the vast majority of Mormons agree with me, but that is a lousy question to ask then claim that those who responded negatively don’t believe in evolution.
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