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Chapter 10: Our Search for Truth Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Fielding Smith
This upcoming PR lesson is giving me the shivers, even though the title addresses a favorite topic of mine. My personal passion in the Gospel is the insights I have gained about the importance of truth and how it can be obtained. The lesson has some good points, but I am greatly offended by its obsession on dogmatism. For example
Quote:But we think this pursuit of worldly learning should be tempered with a like pursuit of spiritual understanding. It is more important, a thousand times over, to have a knowledge of God and his laws, so that we can do the things which bring salvation, than it is to have all the worldly knowledge that can be obtained.7
I agree, love of God and our fellow men is more spiritually important than e=mc2. But all gospel principles aren’t equal either. The foundational principle (established in the pre-existence) of free agency is far more important than the commandment to not drink tea or coffee. Likewise, free agency is more than giving corporatism the unfettered right to sell products that knowingly threaten the public health.
But secular knowledge can legitimately trump church council. My wife was prescribed coffee for a heart condition. And aeronautic engineering is more important to my traveling safety than whether I do that on Sunday or not. Yet the lesson proclaims:
Quote:So far as the philosophy and wisdom of the world are concerned, they mean
nothingunless they conform to the revealed word of God. Any doctrine, whether it comes in the name of religion, science, philosophy, or whatever it may be, if it is in conflict with the revealed word of the Lord, will fail. It may appear plausible. It may be put before you in language that appeals and which you may not be able to answer. It may appear to be established by evidence that you cannot controvert, but all you need to do is to abide your time. Time will level all things. You will find that every doctrine, every principle,no matter how universally believed, if it is not in accord with the divine word of the Lord to his servants, will perish.… The word of the Lord shall not pass away unfulfilled, but these false doctrines and theories will all fail.Truth, and only truth, will remain when all else has perished.10
How then do you explain the “eternal unchanging principles” of polygamy, priesthood ban, Adam-God theory, or teachings that being gay was a sin (irrespective of behavior). What about the teaching that native Americans were descendants of the Lamanites, or the Martin and Willey handcart fiasco, and the Kirkland bank failure?God never absolved prophets and apostles from the foibles of mortality. They are not infallible. They have their pet peeves, opinions, and simple ignorances, just like the rest of us. It makes me sad that the correlation committee insists on setting up false expectations maintaining everything in the Church is perfect and couldn’t possibly be any better. The BofM & D&C are replete with the prophets recognizing their limitations, and or chastisement from God. And the Bible witnesses to their screw-ups as well.
And what about the Articles of Faith:
Quote:9 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they13 We believe in…anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
What I would love, would be an honest discussion of Epistemology, a subject that Mormons should be high on. Yet I suspect few Mormons could even give its definition.
Quote:Epistemology ( i/ɨˌpɪstɨˈmɒlədʒi/ from Greek ἐπιστήμη, epistēmē, meaning “knowledge, understanding”, and λόγος, logos, meaning “study of”) is the branch of philosophy concerned with the nature and scope of knowledge[1][2] and is also referred to as “theory of knowledge”. It questions what knowledge is and how it can be acquired, and the extent to which knowledge pertinent to any given subject or entity can be acquired. Much of the debate in this field has focused on the philosophical analysis of the nature of knowledge and how it relates to connected notions such as truth, belief, and justification.
—- Wikipedia
Gaining intelligence is another of those overarching principles, IMO: The glory of God is intelligence, no one can be saved in ignorance, and every blessing is bases on the law upon which it is predicated. When was Joseph Smith’s statements rescinded that “One of the grand fundamental principles of ‘Mormonism’ is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may”, that “We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out as true ‘Mormons’”, and that “If by the principles of truth we succeed in uniting men of all denominations in the bonds of love, shall we not have attained a good object?”
Comments, suggestions on how to survive 30 minutes of the lesson’s narrow focus?
Are you teaching or just attending? Just attending. A couple weeks ago I taught this class on the prophetic roles of Joseph and Hyrum Smith, lesson # 7 about the prophetic roles of Joseph and Hyrum Smith. I had a bad experience with that lesson, and am still smarting from it.
In that lesson, I began the lesson positive by reading passages from it and asking for a discussion. Then I turned to discussing their stewardship to a world wide church, and our stewardship to ourselves and our families. As part of that I read the following two quotes:
Quote:(Discourses of Brigham Young [1954], p.135)
“I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not.”
Quote:Not mindless worker bees
Hugh B. Brown’s statement
“Preserve, then, the freedom of your mind in education and in religion, and be unafraid to express your thoughts and to insist upon your right to examine every proposition. We are not so much concerned with whether your thoughts are orthodox or heterodox as we are that you shall have thoughts.”
Then I said, let me read a statement from a friend and then give me your response:
Quote:Brian Johnson
We must NOT rely on blind obedience to leaders. It steals the power we might have to contribute through our own direct connection to God and personal revelation. Dependence on another was the Satan’s plan in the war in heaven — that we should surrender informed faith for blind faith.
I received STRONG push back from one member, who is also a High Councilman. He basically said that the prophets will never lead us astray, and any suggestion otherwise was out of line. I chose not to confront him, believing it would serve no useful purpose. So I thanked him for his comment and moved on. (BTW, he’s known for being an opinionated a_ _. even among other people on the High Council.But I feel very strongly that blind obedience is dangerously close to what Satan proposed, because it does steal our power to know for ourselves. I grew up in Mormondom, trusted everything I was taught to the extreme, and have lived to regret it. I don’t regret the values and standards, in fact I am grateful for them, I appreciate the doctrines of the purpose of life, I’m grateful for Church leaders who teach a moderate view, but this blind obedience crap is for the birds. I don’t know how I can set through lesson 10 without being very uncomfortable. Several of the class members like my style of teaching, but the TBM’ers are much more vocal.
I guess I just was to far out for that class. I’ll just stay home.
dash1730 wrote:I guess I just was to far out for that class. I’ll just stay home.
Please don’t! I’ll be teaching and looking for people to kindly crack open a decent discussion. Maybe your teacher will be, too.
I hope it is ok that I have moved my post to here… I have a dilemma. I am to teach elders quorum this coming Sunday. The lesson is lesson 10, Our Search for Truth. The problem is I don’t feel comfortable giving the old company line about prayer and feeling the Holy Ghost. I have had personal experience where I have seen that the feelings of the Holy Ghost are not infallible. Meaning a person does not come to know the truth threw the feelings of what they think is a Ghost. I cant say what I just said in class with out having the room of TBM’s going ballistic.
Does any one know of some good stories, quotes or antidotes to express how one comes to the truth threw rational thinking and observation? How do I convey to the class how to have critical thinking skills while learning? I want to encourage them to shed off their bias opinions and view things from a logical point of view with out throwing me out.
The group of people I’ll be teaching are very defensive when discussing any thing that is out side their current belief system. Or should I just cower and read from the manual as printed?
Thank you for your help.
Quote:D&C 88:118 – “And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.”
Quote that verse and say that you love to study the best books, in all areas, to try to fulfill this command (and phrase it as a command, given your audience). Then, sit back and practice deep breathing, if necessary.
dash1730 wrote:Chapter 10: Our Search for Truth
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Fielding Smith
Quote:So far as the philosophy and wisdom of the world are concerned, they mean
nothingunless they conform to the revealed word of God. Any doctrine, whether it comes in the name of religion, science, philosophy, or whatever it may be, if it is in conflict with the revealed word of the Lord, will fail. It may appear plausible. It may be put before you in language that appeals and which you may not be able to answer. It may appear to be established by evidence that you cannot controvert, but all you need to do is to abide your time. Time will level all things. You will find that every doctrine, every principle,no matter how universally believed, if it is not in accord with the divine word of the Lord to his servants, will perish.… The word of the Lord shall not pass away unfulfilled, but these false doctrines and theories will all fail.Truth, and only truth, will remain when all else has perished.10 The problem is who is deciding what is “the revealed word of God”. In most cases there wouldn’t be any argument but in times past some GAs would tell you what was God’s “revealed word” and there wouldn’t be much room for discussion. I was a missionary in the old mission home in 1964 when Joseph Fielding Smith came over to answer questions. The first one asked was what the churches position on evolution was. He said and I quote, “The churches position on evolution is that it is a great fake”, and with a glare he went on to the next question. I didn’t believe it then and don’t now. It was just his opinion and that’s all in spite of his being a GA and I don’t discount his position or authority. He was just wrong.
JFS also famously said man would never walk on the moon. Weather taught by the church or anyone else in any time or place. I can’t think of a more dangerous doctrine to trench anyone then this. Having said that, I guess you could answer any questions with a smartly worded question. Something like defining doctrine, when speaking as a prophet and personal revelations.
Quotes from BY about being concerned they would blindly follow and not ask for themselves. Or JS about appreciating to of rather being able to think freely and rather being in error with the heart in the right place. Worded as polite questions or statements as the topic arises.
Don’t forget about men living on the moon and sun.
If I have time I’ll try to find exact quotes that can turn around the negative conversation/teaching into a positive one with supportive quotes.
Quote:And none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the priesthood. We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark, that they would do anything they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God… would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents, they should do it without asking any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their minds to do wrong themselves.” (Millennial Star, vol.14 #38, pp. 593-95)
Quote:“What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.” (JD 9:150)
DarkJedi wrote:JFS also famously said man would never walk on the moon.
As I recall his response when that was pointed out to him in a public situation was “well, I was wrong, wasn’t I” or something like that.
Don’t go into a lesson like this looking to argue or educate or prove anyone wrong. It is a positive topic as worded, so don’t go into it with a negative orientation. Go in with a list of scriptural verses and statements from apostles, read and discuss one at a time, and the time will disappear. The one I listed above works for a discussion of what it means to “seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith” – and it might even help to have a couple of references of books you have read and really liked about various topics – or to go around the room and ask everyone to mention at least one book that taught them something and that they would recommend.
The 9th Article of Faith works, as well:
Quote:“We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.”
Look through mackay11’s quote thread for quotes that are faith-affirming and talk about the need to study and think and search. Avoid anything that even implies focusing solely on religious understanding and/or the scriptures.
Those are good suggestions Ray. Thank you. I am thinking of sharing the story of Galileo. He believed the world went around the sun. The religious leaders at the time (Catholics) believed the sun went around the earth. There is even scripture in the bible to back this claim up. The Catholics found him guilty of heresy and confined him to house arrest and made him recant his statement. I hope that we today are not like the Catholics at that time. We believe something because its in the bible, or because the prophet says so, or because of a feeling. But then I am afraid those in the Elders quorum class will think they are not like the Catholics because unlike the Catholics of that time they have the “truth”. What do you think of me sharing this story?
The story is fine, but I would be very careful of making it sound critical. I might tell the story and then reference how wonderful it was to hear Pres. Uchtdorf say in General Conference that apostles make mistakes, and Elder Holland’s statement that the Lord must be frustrated sometimes because all he has to work with are imperfect people – and then launch into the 9th Article of Faith and other verses and/or quotes that talk about the need to search everywhere for truth. You can say, “We can’t be as dogmatic as we tend to be and have been in the past,” without saying it that way.
Quote:
Science and MormonismBack to Mormon Quotes Index
“Our religion embraces chemistry; it embraces all the knowledge of the geologist, and then it goes a little further than their systems of argument, for the Lord Almighty, its author, is the greatest chemist there is.”
– Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 15, p. 127
“In these respects we differ from the Christian world, for our religion will not clash with or contradict the facts of science in any particular.”
– Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 14, p. 116
“If, on the Sabbath day, when we are assembled here to worship the Lord, one of the Elders should be prompted to give us a lecture on any branch of education with which he is acquainted, is it outside the pale of our religion?
“Or if an Elder shall give us a lecture upon astronomy, chemistry, or geology, our religion embraces it all. It matters not what the subject be, if it tends to improve the mind, exalt the feelings, and enlarge the capacity. The truth that is in all the arts and sciences forms a part of our religion. Faith is no more a part of it than any other true principle of philosophy.”
– Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, pp. 334-335.
“The study of science is the study of something eternal. If we study chemistry, we study the works of God. If we study chemistry, geology, optics, or any other branch of science, every new truth we come to the understanding of is eternal; it is a part of the great system of universal truth. It is truth that exists throughout universal nature; and God is the dispenser of all truth – scientific, religious, and political. Therefore let all classes of citizens and people endeavor to improve their time more than heretofore – to train their minds to that which is best calculated for their good and the good of the society which surrounds them.”
– Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, v. 7, p. 157
“The pressing need of the age is a system of religion that can recognize, at the same time, the truths of demonstrated science and the doctrines found in the pages of sacred writ, and can show that perfect harmony exists between the works and words of the Creator; a religion that will reach both the head and the heart – that is, will satisfy both the intellect and the conscience.”
– “Science and Religion,” Millennial Star, v. 60, p. 761, December 1, 1898
“If [the sun] was made to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized. Every planet in the first rude, organic state receives not the glory of God upon it, but is opaque; but when celstialized, every planet that God brings into existence is a body of light, but not till then.”
– Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 271
“Since the Gospel embraces all truth, there can never be any genuine contradictions between true science and true religion…. I am obliged, as a Latter-day Saint, to believe whatever is true, regardless of the source.”
– Henry Eyring, Faith of a Scientist, p. 12, 31
Here are a ton of science related quotes on
http://www.sciencemeetsreligion.org/lds/lds-science-quotes.php ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.sciencemeetsreligion.org/lds/lds-science-quotes.php Tons of non feather rifling quotes to rummage through. One can find many contradictory teachings if they choose. But there are tons of actual hopeful and inspiring teachings to grab from and here are just a few.
Between positive quotes or negative unhealthy quotes, positive uplifting ones win every time.
I was thinking very seriously about firing of an email to the person assigned for teaching the lesson, offering my input either in class or feed it to him to use. But I feel a little to firey to make a purely positive statement about it. Maybe later, or maybe I’ll just skip priesthood because I can’t stand just setting there quietly without offending the TBMs. But even that leaves me feeling unheard, & ignored.
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