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Sexuality is only one aspect of an intimate relationship. For some, it is very important, for others it is less. For me it is about honesty and generosity more than anything else. There is nothing more attractive than a confident person who loves me as I am. One that I have shared my fears and darkest thoughts with and still is my cheerleader. That wants me with all my warts yet is not satisfied with my living below my privileges. richalger wrote:Sexuality is only one aspect of an intimate relationship. For some, it is very important, for others it is less. For me it is about honesty and generosity more than anything else. There is nothing more attractive than a confident person who loves me as I am. One that I have shared my fears and darkest thoughts with and still is my cheerleader. That wants me with all my warts yet is not satisfied with my living below my privileges.
I agree 100% with what you have said Rich. That sounds like a heaven.
I actually do not believe that you and the OP are as far apart as might be assumed.
Quote:After having been married for awhile I always told myself I don’t think I could get married again without living with the other person first because after getting married without living with my wife I don’t think I ever would have gotten married to her had we lived together. I know that sounds bad but it’s the truth. As much as you think you know someone it’s still different living together. I know my family would think I’m probably destined for hell if I live with someone before I get married but I just don’t think I could do it otherwise. I’m not saying you even need to have a sexual relationship with them (I realize the odds of not having one and living with them are highly unlikely).
The OP seems to be suggesting living together not primarily for the sexual compatibility aspect but rather to get to know each other better as part of a “trial marriage”. Theoretically, living together might be an effective way to verify that your partner is the type of emotionally capable person that will love you as you are, want you with all your warts, and be your cheerleader to help you achieve your potential.
Unfortunately there are no guarantees in life or marriage and people from all types of groups have married only to find that their spouse does not really possess the important relationship qualities in any sort of substantive way.
Again, I do not see any one-size-fits-all solution for this, it is a combination of wise/smart choices and having good fortune.
From my perspective, chastity is important for self-respect and for truly caring about other people. Pride is the mother of all sin. So…having been divorced, my experience tells me that it is impossible to know hypothetically what would/could/should happen between 2 people in a relationship. I would never in a gajillion years believe I would be in this position after having given everything to my family and my faith. I was humbled. Things happen that are out of our control. They just happen. We deal with it.
Perhaps Roy said it best:
Roy wrote:it is a combination of wise/smart choices and having good fortune.
For those with good fortune, they may ascribe too much to their wise choices, thinking if others made wise choices, they would have the same luck. But when you have bad fortune…well…make up whatever story you want to try to explain things…sometimes it is just bad luck.
Those with a great sex life have a hard time imagining living without it. Those without one may or may not find ways to work on it, settle for it, or accept it and focus on other factors as part of the whole picture.
Old Timer wrote:People are different.
I believe this question is the wrong question to be thinking about:
unsure wrote:Is it better to follow what the church teaches to find out you aren’t really happy with that person and get a divorce years later (sometimes not even that long) or give it a go with someone you think you love and are considering marrying and then finding out beforehand it just doesn’t work?
For two main reasons:
1) Why is getting a divorce something so terrible that we would question following church teachings of love and sacrifice to become the best we can become? Divorce has been a blessing for me and my kids. You might as well ask: Why should I follow the doctor’s advice to stay healthy even if I end up getting a job and making money? They are mostly unrelated things, or at least they are not co-dependent things. They do not necessarily follow, and should not be conflated. People falsely talk about the event of a divorce as a sign of failure like they talk about not attending sacrament meeting is a sign of spiritual weakness. From one perspective, that is viewed that way. But it isn’t necessarily true. Staying in a marriage can be good, or bad. Divorce can be good, or bad. For me…I love divorce.
2) The only way to guarantee knowing if the marriage will work is to live with the person until you or they die. After living together that long, you will know what it will be like to be married to them. If they were compatible that whole time, you would know that a marriage would have worked. The problem, obviously, is that at that point…you’ve missed the chance to be married. No amount of time living together or having sex together prior to my first marriage would have predicted the events that led to my divorce. None. It would be like trying to test drive a car long enough to know you won’t ever be in a crash. It is looking for the guarantee of something that you can never have a guarantee of. It also removes the chance for faith, hope, trust, and effort to work towards what your heart desires…and falsely seeks after signs that want to prove something true to avoid disappointment.
So…there I was, 45 and dating again. You know…it’s not that different than college dating, with temptations and desires and tests for what you believe in. And…finding what I wanted, despite my cynicism it was ever possible to be really out there again…I now have the most beautiful and compatible wife I could dream of having. That didn’t come from me changing my approach, changing my standards, or the church changing it’s message. It was good choices and good fortune….and I keep dealing with life as it rolls on.
Inside a marriage…chastity and morality are still true principles. The focus just changes from having self-respect to abstain from sex before marriage, to having self-respect to properly treat the one other person in your life you adore and worship in this life with or without sex. The underlying principles are the same.
Relationships are built on commitment and trust. Everything flows from that. Including chastity.
It is best for us to focus on today and what we have, and work to make it what we want. Divorce is not bad. Sex is not always good. We have many points of view and work within our situations to find bliss.
Very well said! Thank you for adding your perspective. Wonderful comment, Heber. Truly wonderful. Thank you!
richalger wrote:Sexuality is only one aspect of an intimate relationship. For some, it is very important, for others it is less.
For me it is about honesty and generosity more than anything else. There is nothing more attractive than a confident person who loves me as I am. One that I have shared my fears and darkest thoughts with and still is my cheerleader. That wants me with all my warts yet is not satisfied with my living below my privileges.What you said is very succint and I think it pretty much sums up anything that would need to be said about what you want in a marriage. I think anyone would want a relationship like that.
heber wrote:For two main reasons:
1) Why is getting a divorce something so terrible that we would question following church teachings of love and sacrifice to become the best we can become? Divorce has been a blessing for me and my kids. You might as well ask: Why should I follow the doctor’s advice to stay healthy even if I end up getting a job and making money? They are mostly unrelated things, or at least they are not co-dependent things. They do not necessarily follow, and should not be conflated. People falsely talk about the event of a divorce as a sign of failure like they talk about not attending sacrament meeting is a sign of spiritual weakness. From one perspective, that is viewed that way. But it isn’t necessarily true. Staying in a marriage can be good, or bad. Divorce can be good, or bad. For me…I love divorce.
Heber, I like all of what you said but I’m not 100% sure I can agree with you on this first part.
Divorce in your case turned out to be something positive, although you may not have felt that at the time. Divorce is something that can completely ruin people, families and children. I think divorce is something to fear. I’m not going to call anyone out for following the ways of the world, especially given the topic and what I’ve said but your first sentence almost makes it sound like you’re saying divorce isn’t a big deal. Maybe I’m just reading it wrong but that’s what society would have us believe. Your spouse is annoying? Gained a few pounds? That’s ok, just get a divorce! No big deal. I’m not saying this is you at all. But IMO, divorce is something terrible, life altering and many times destructive on so many levels for all involved. Maybe it shouldn’t be enough to make me question following church teachings but I guess that’s where I sit currently. Is downplaying divorce and the subsequent breaking of a temple marriage really any better (worse?) than the sin of living with someone before marriage? Afterall, divorce is clearly against what the church teaches, especially when you’re sealed in the temple.
I agree that you you absolutely cannot predict everything that will happen and to live with someone and expect to think that divorce won’t happen because you have a better understanding of who that person is, is naive. I was talking more of the obvious issues where after living with someone you realize that it was clearly not what you expected, maybe they aren’t who they pretended to be or whatever the case might be and you aren’t happy together.
I do agree with everything else and really appreciate your response though.
I see your point, unsure. And if my comment made it sound like divorce is no big deal…then yes…good clarification because that is not how I feel. I avoided it at all costs. It wrecked me financially. It was a last resort option in my case, not a first one because I was “annoyed”. In my case, it was done to me, I was served the papers. I will spare you the details. But when I listen to Pres Uchtdorf’s message in the last Gen Priesthood session, I can tell he is talking to some group of people about sticking it out and not disposing of marriage like we do material things in life. I get that. That just isn’t my situation, and Pres Uchtdorf didn’t address my situation to say he would understand why I would get a divorce. he just left that silent. Which I guess I understand, but hate that it makes it sound like divorce is bad always in all situations.
And good clarification by you that if my comments make it sound like it is great in all situations…that’s not it either.
But…if you are going to try to make me feel that what was done to me is against church teachings…I will argue with you because it is not. And I am at peace with God and my church.
IN the context of this thread…I truly believe divorce can be good or bad, it can happen for a variety of reasons, it is not something society would seek to promote as recommended for all…but sleeping with a partner before marriage doesn’t remove all those reasons divorce happens.
So it is kind of a false premise that we shouldn’t live chaste and moral lives because we can avoid divorce if we lower our standards before marriage.
I know I didn’t express that all right. But I hope you get my point.
Marriage is perhaps the most complicated thing in life, excpet perhaps divorce. I wrote the following back in 2011, and it is the best response I can give:
“
When Divorce Is the Best Option” ( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2011/09/when-divorce-is-best-option.html I need to make sure it is clear that I do not believe abuse is the only justification for divorce. I used it in the post, but drug addictions, felony actions, serious neglect, serial laziness, etc. also can lead to divorce being better than continued marriage. Also, sometimes there really are irreconcilable personal differences that make marriage hellish. I agree it should not be a default, an easy solution, a simple option – but, sometimes (more often than we tend to realize), it is good and even necessary.
Living together might bring to light some of those things, but having sex will not – at all. Even living together, if marriage is the goal, often won’t change anything, since it can take years for some of these things to develop fully – and because manipulators can wait for a bit to begin, if they see the benefits of doing so.
[Admin Note]: If divorce is discussed in conjunction with the point of the post, that is fine. Let’s not make this a thread about divorce. If someone wants to discuss divorce, another post and thread would be more appropriate. Heber13 wrote:I see your point, unsure. And if my comment made it sound like divorce is no big deal…then yes…good clarification because that is not how I feel. I avoided it at all costs. It wrecked me financially. It was a last resort option in my case, not a first one because I was “annoyed”. In my case, it was done to me, I was served the papers. I will spare you the details. But when I listen to Pres Uchtdorf’s message in the last Gen Priesthood session, I can tell he is talking to some group of people about sticking it out and not disposing of marriage like we do material things in life. I get that.
That just isn’t my situation, and Pres Uchtdorf didn’t address my situation to say he would understand why I would get a divorce. he just left that silent. Which I guess I understand, but hate that it makes it sound like divorce is bad always in all situations.
And good clarification by you that if my comments make it sound like it is great in all situations…that’s not it either.
But…if you are going to try to make me feel that what was done to me is against church teachings…I will argue with you because it is not. And I am at peace with God and my church.
IN the context of this thread…I truly believe divorce can be good or bad, it can happen for a variety of reasons, it is not something society would seek to promote as recommended for all…but sleeping with a partner before marriage doesn’t remove all those reasons divorce happens.
So it is kind of a false premise that we shouldn’t live chaste and moral lives because we can avoid divorce if we lower our standards before marriage.
I know I didn’t express that all right. But I hope you get my point.
In regards to the admin note – I have no problem with the current discussion so it’s fine with me and I’ll address this.
Heber, I didn’t think you felt like marriage is no big deal but your post kinda felt that way, at least to me, when I read it. So I was just getting some clarification.
As said divorce can be a good thing in several different situations. In your case it was good and there is no reason you shouldn’t be at peace with God and the church.
Heber13 wrote:
But…if you are going to try to make me feel that what was done to me is against church teachings…I will argue with you because it is not.I don’t know what your specific situation was and it doesn’t really matter so I have nothing to argue. But as far as the general teachings of the church go, divorce is so strongly discouraged (as it should be) and eternal families are emphasized so heavily (especially when you’ve been sealed in the temple) that most don’t see that divorce can be a positive or necessary. I’ve been told in my own situation that “the brethren say if two people want to work on it, that it can work” along with other comments that make it feel like there is almost no good reason for divorce and you should work on it at all costs. Almost like all you have to do is want it bad enough and try and it’ll all work out But that isn’t reality. If the majority of members realized that it’s far more complex than that then I don’t think there would be such a stigma surrounding divorce in the church. I think this might be lessening to some degree but it is still very prevalent.
Also I never said, at least I don’t believe so, that you needed to have sex with a partner before marriage. I questioned living together before marriage (and admitted that the physical would be hard to keep away if you do live with someone) not that you need to sleep with someone before hand. Re-reading my initial post I could have just as easily have left this out. I’m not sure it needed to be included and it just makes it seem like I’m advocating sex before marriage but I’m not really.
unsure wrote:I think sexual compatibility is just as important as anything else in a relationship.
Heber13 wrote:…but sleeping with a partner before marriage doesn’t remove all those reasons divorce happens.
So it is kind of a false premise that we shouldn’t live chaste and moral lives because we can avoid divorce if we lower our standards before marriage.
I agree with both of these.
unsure wrote:make it feel like there is almost no good reason for divorce and you should work on it at all costs. Almost like all you have to do is want it bad enough and try and it’ll all work out But that isn’t reality.
Humans generally tend to feel like we can control our own destiny. This is the American dream – that anyone can raise themselves up by their bootstraps from poverty to become President. I feel like the LDS church exacerbates this tendency by enshrining free agency. Church leaders such as bishops tend to never have been divorced (is this a rule or just a preference?) that means that it might be hard for them to fully understand situations where divorce is a better solution than continued unhappy marriage. Add that all together and blend it in a cup and you end up with a strong sense on “Internal Locus of Control.”
Just a few cents into the discussion… I’ve studied marriage and happiness for a long time, and while I don’t claim to be an expert, I have learned a few things.
First, the LDS marriage statistics from years ago showing that divorce rates among temple married couples were inaccurate. If I remember right, I used to hear that only about 5 % of LDS temple married couples divorced. The number is actually closer to 20-25%, which is about the same as active, committed couples from other denominations. The number of divorces of non-temple sealed LDS couples is a bit higher. Part of the previous problem tracking “temple divorces” is that there is not such a thing. The church does not automatically cancel the sealing of LDS couples who get divorced. So they may be completely divorced in the eyes of the law, but still counted as “sealed” by the church.
In regards to cohabitation, earlier studies showed that couples who cohabitated tended to split on average sooner than those who married, which still seems to be the case and very likely relates to the level of commitment they bring to the relationship (and commitment to a religion that discourages cohabitation and divorce). Earlier studies also showed that living together prior to marriage did not reduce the probability of divorce, but actually increased it. However, later studies have shown no clear correlation related to the prior cohabitation, but rather the age at which it occurred. People to shack up at younger ages have higher rates of splitting up as do those who marry at younger ages. There are a few factors related to marriage success and if I remember correctly they are: age (older is better if you want to increase chances of staying together), education (more is better), and having a job. Shared religion is a factor, but not as strong as those other three.
I agree that sexual compatibility is difficult to ascertain prior to marriage, but incompatibility sometimes isn’t apparent right away, maybe even after some years of living and sleeping together, AND sexual incompatibility can also often be very apparent right off the bat, but can be easily remedied by time and working on it together. Sexual compatibility isn’t so much one factor but a dynamic continuum that changes depending on many other factors. Obviously, when couples are best friends, committed to helping, loving, and serving one another, compatibility issues can usually be worked out.
Having said this, I do think it is vitally important that couples, prior to marriage, discuss sexuality and sexual ideas/expectations to figure out if they’re even in the same ballpark. If one spouse thinks sex should only be for procreation and the other one wants to engage in it every day, this is something they probably want to know prior to making the commitment. Presumably, a cohabitating couple would have worked out any ballpark issues, but I’ve seen no research that suggests they really have an advantage of sticking together longer or having a more fulfilling sexual relationship.
One disadvantage argued against entering marriage as two virgins is that sexual ideas and expectations are not really understood… that these people are sexual neophytes who may not really know yet what they need and want in a long term sexual relationship. However, I would think that education, education, education can remedy any such issues. I’ve been involved in long discussions regarding the church’s role in this. Does the church need to do a better job educating YM and YW? The parents? Helping couples find better sexual intimacy? It’s a hot topic. I think the Oakland CA stake has done a great job of addressing these needs (see loveunparalleled.com).
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