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Yes he is! Thanks for the link! Wow, I will proceed there immediately, without passing GO. CONGRATS Brian (and thanks John D.)! Fantastic podcast. John and Brian, you are both angels! I think I would be likely out of the Church had it not been for Mormon Stories and StayLDS.com. I was recently called to a moderately significant position in my ward, despite the fact that months ago I confessed to my Stake President that I was beginning to have doubts about many parts of the gospel and God in general. I would not have made it here, were it not for the support and understanding offered at this site. I feel like I actually can be “me” and at the same time continue to serve in the LDS Church. I have also arrived at a new stage of faith, where my spirituality has increased due to the doubts that I began to have. I hope that I can channel that faith into love and action, in order to better serve my fellow man.
I must have barely missed both you and John at the MTC by 3-4 months (I deducted that by listening to the podcast). I do recall hearing Pres. Pinegar laughing about a “notebook” he had seen from an “interesting soul” and some odd drawings a few months earlier! (I heard that as he was talking to Jay Jensen in a lunch line.)
I also share your feelings about the Book of Mormon. I do believe that Joseph Smith translated a history of people who lived in the Americas, but I also believe, he added many stories, ideas and Bibical passages through inspiration on his own.
I too experienced a mystical re-conversion years ago, after doing some things that were not appropriate, and literally screaming in the middle of the night, when the Holy Ghost withdrew from me. I try to remember that when I start to wax agnostic/atheistic.
I have learned to appreciate the LDS Church through these resources, and discard in my mind certain “mistakes” such as polygamy, polyandry, and blacks in the priesthood.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your selfless service. I hope that as my own situation improves, I will be able to make a financial contribution to your sites. I am sorry I can’t right now.
God bless,
A brother somewhere out in Cyberland
Ah, that was a cool experience. Brian, we are peas in a pod. And I *am* a mystic. Really nice job. Way to blow the top off with the matter-of-fact “The Church is not true” comment. I just about died (with a smile on my face, mind you). But it’s what I know to be true. The Church is true, and it isn’t. Not the way I thought it was. It is true, like a straight arrow is true.
The scriptures are the flesh covering the real truth, which is the ‘bones’ underneath, that, sadly, so few people actually see. When I realized that D&C 10 means what it does, it was a marvelous confirmation to my heretical ‘knowledge’.
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures,
that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this
mystery9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.
10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.
This explains SO much. And it explains why, if someone understands the mind of God, altering, adding to and ‘messing around’ with the scriptures is not a problem. As the Hindu gurus say, at some point
youbecome scripture, and reading other’s scriptures (what other people like you wrote in the past) is no longer necessary. HiJolly
I loved the discussion. CONGRATS to both of these fine men. I also laughed at John’s reaction to Brian’s “It’s not true.” It is a valid reason why some people leave. I would also have mentioned (touched on briefly in the Podcast), that civil rights & social advancements are big on some agendas. One begins to worry if their grandkids will be nervous around “other people,” rather than embracing diversity & unconditional love. I sometimes try a vision quest, I sit & think what the LDS church will likely be like in about half a century. It helps to look at issues from a long perspective. Thanks for the nice comments everyone. I felt a little bad for the “not true” comment afterward, but I was intentionally trying to be a little shocking. I posted an explanation of my position over that the MormonStories site. Brian Johnston wrote:I kind of regret a little saying so firmly that the Church is not true. I meant that to be a little shocking and challenging. I am not totally backing down from that, but I want to clarify my personal position.
I don’t think some of the surface mythology is factually or historically true. I think many of our individual interpretations and expectations are not true. *BUT* I find a lot of beautiful and uniquely formulated “Mormon” religious tools within the LDS Church that help me approach the divine and transcendent. To me, it still points in the direction of finding truth, like the Liahona metaphor.
So “the Church” as a blob of many ideas and practices is true and false and irrelevant all at the same time. In know this fuzziness frustrates some people. It seems natural to me when I look around in the world. Everything is a little bit like that, at least what I see.
Truth is a ham sandwich. I think that is the best definition and explanation of truth I have ever heard. Excellent podcast.
Brian- I appreciated your perspective of how your parents & church leaders weren’t “out to get you” but simply had incorrect info that they really believed. You mentioned feeling like you didn’t fit in, which I can relate to & reminds me of the song, “People are strange when you’re a stranger” by the Doors. I liked the quote “As within, so without”…& how you explained that what you find in the world around you is a reflection of what is within your mind. Also, how things aren’t “black or white” nor even gray…but there’s a huge technicolor spectrum of possibilities. Beautifully said!
HiJolly wrote:…The Church is true, and it isn’t. Not the way I thought it was. It is true, like a straight arrow is true.
The scriptures are the flesh covering the real truth, which is the ‘bones’ underneath, that, sadly, so few people actually see…
I agree – it’s like a stereogram – to many it’s just colors & illogical patterns, but after you stare at it a bit, you can see a 3-D picture. I think much can be scripture…anything that brings us closer to God…& God created everything!
I enjoyed hearing your story Brian. It has been interesting to follow your story (and name changes!) from FacesEast to NOM to StayLDS over the past several years. I appreciate the empathetic and tolerant tone you use in your posts. Well done, I really liked this Podcast. I love hearing your perspectives, Brian. Very down to earth, loving, and practical. It is sometimes very refreshing to hear someone say, “I don’t have all the answers, but we can support each other while figuring it out” – rather than someone spouting off all problems or all anger or convinced they must “enlighten” others with all the problems of the church. It is a peaceful perspective. Tigger wrote:I must have barely missed both you and John at the MTC by 3-4 months (I deducted that by listening to the podcast).
I also thought the same thing.Actually, I was in Heleman Halls the same time Brian and John were…I was 3rd floor Hinckley Hall.
I was in the MTC August of 1988, and back to BYU afterwards to study International Relations and Business graduating in 1994.
Pretty similar life paths, and finally having a crisis of faith in mid-life, a few years before reaching 40.
I can’t help but think our paths crossed unknowingly at times, only to finally cross paths over the web in this way. We probably know some of the same people, but I’m not good at remembering names and stuff from years past to figure that out.
Anyway, Good Podcast and the message was strong…I think can help a lot of people to know how similar our paths are with others sometimes.
Good story, there’s a lot in it that I can relate to and sympathize with. I see Brian’s pre-empted me on the “not true” thing. I was going to say that I thought this was badly phrased, although I understood what he was driving at. To go back to the ham sandwich metaphor (and hold the mustard on mine please
😆 ), I think we can see the problem here being that when we are members of the church, we are often supposed to swallow things whole. In other words, if you have a testimony of the Book of Mormon, people expect you to support everything else in the church – and as this site keeps reminding us, not all of it’s even doctrinal. So I like to take smaller bites out of my sandwich, or at least try to cut it up into smaller pieces before I chew it.Analyzing truth can get too much into dusty philosophical territory, but it does remind me of that bit in
Jesus Christ Superstar(my mother had the record of it – am I even supposed to listen to it?!). And Pontius Pilate says to Jesus in it (cut and paste job here) – “What is truth? We both have truths, is mine the same as yours?”
As for the other reasons for people leaving mentioned – yes, history, I can relate to that. The church can’t keep on presenting a completely rosy view of its history and expect curious people to buy it. Joseph Smith made mistakes – to give one example, we know he made a mistake with the missing 116 pages of the Book of Lehi, and the church admits that. And there will be other stuff. Boredom and waste of time? Well, yes, I can relate to that too, although unlike the last one, that’s more of a personal than an intellectual issue perhaps.
I think what you’re doing is a great thing, it’s allowed people like myself to re-assess their relationship with the church, and new ways to approach it. I think I would have been totally disgruntled and fed up without an outlet like this.
I’m going to go back and listen to the second bit again, as I was interrupted earlier…
Kudos, Brian. I just finished the podcast and I really enjoyed it. You have lived a fascinating life. I must admit, I actually chuckled a little bit when you “felt bad” and had to clarify your position. I don’t mean that flippantly, just that, this is you realizing you actually bumped into one of the “sacred cows” in Mormonism and felt you probably offended some sensibilities.
In any case, I really loved the podcast.
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