- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
MercyNGrace: That is beautiful! As I read your post, it brought me back front and center to why I’ve stayed and not gone less active. There are too many hurting people all around who need us. I have been grateful for those who have put that arm around me time and again and I’ve been the one putting the arm around another. No matter how organized the church gets with HTing, VTing, compassionate service, etc, there are always others who need us. I don’t need to relate to the movie analogy…I think it is a poor fit. I relate more to Jesus going among the people and stopping to reach the one, again and again, when others were pressing him to keep going, to ignore them and actually keeping the children from Him. That is the analogy I try to keep in my head. And maybe we can tweak that analogy a little further and envision us being the one trying to reach him, even when people within the church are getting in our way. They more than likely don’t realize they are getting in our way. I am sure they really don’t mean or want to get in our way.(Except for those few who do sometimes want people to go away) I am having an Aha moment here. Now, how to recognize ourselves when we may getting in the way of someone else trying to reach Him?
Didn’t mean to take this post away from your original topic, Cwald! Sorry!
I think you are right on topic afterall…. M&G….I like the ideas and the application…but it is bittersweet to me. I agree, and spent years doing it and even played the game if getting a TR to have callings where I could serve and make a difference…that is what I did….that was the Gospel and the purpose of church…and I think I did fine and helped a small, struggling branch stay afloat
Now I am an “apostate.”
The family couldn’t understand why I was so angry and hurt when they outed me to the stake. They have no idea of the damage they caused. All they know is another “middle way” john dehlin, wolf in sheep clothing, Mormon, has been put in his place, bagged, and isolated so as not to be able to prey on the flock.
Damn them.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
I hear you cwald. And I really did think the horse metaphor was lame but then as I started to write about my own experience I started seeing it a little differently. Arbitrary demands and commands made to test loyalty are not the Lord’s way. (And yes, I know what I’m saying regard to events in church history…) To quote Joseph Smith ‘He is not trifling with you and me.’ What has happened to you is wrong on many levels.
I just remembered how similar that metaphor is to the story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac in the Old Testament. Whenever that story comes up as part of the lesson at church, I often point out that the story could be seen in many different ways. Perhaps Abraham would have been even more blessed if he told God “No, you commanded us not to kill, and certainly not to sacrifice human beings. I will not sacrifice this innocent boy to you, even if you are commanding me to do something I know is wrong.” Maybe Abraham missed out on blessing, failing the real rest in a way.
Perhaps the REAL test is to do what you know is right. Maybe the horses should run to the water anyways and not be so blindly obedient to a man with a whistle. Maybe the King wants horses that think for themselves, take the initiative, and become more like the King than fleshy robots that obey a sign.
Brian Johnston wrote:I just remembered how similar that metaphor is to the story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac in the Old Testament. Whenever that story comes up as part of the lesson at church, I often point out that the story could be seen in many different ways. Perhaps Abraham would have been even more blessed if he told God “No, you commanded us not to kill, and certainly not to sacrifice human beings. I will not sacrifice this innocent boy to you, even if you are commanding me to do something I know is wrong.”
Maybe Abraham missed out on blessing, failing the real rest in a way.
Perhaps the REAL test is to do what you know is right. Maybe the horses should run to the water anyways and not be so blindly obedient to a man with a whistle. Maybe the King wants horses that think for themselves, take the initiative, and become more like the King than fleshy robots that obey a sign.
I’ve said this before on another thread but I think we really miss the point in the story of Abraham and frankly, in many of the scriptural accounts.
In Abraham’s story, he enters into a covenant with God after being saved from the hands of his own father in Egypt. God makes promises to Abraham as a result of this covenant relationship and then Abraham, lacking faith, understanding, and trust, goes about trying repeatedly to make these blessings happen in his own way. Sarah even enables this by offering her handmaid to give Abraham an heir. Finally God says, ‘Listen I said I’d provide and I will. Stop trying to create your own heir from servants and illegitimate offspring. Stop trying to build up a kingdom in this land which has yet to be cleansed. Let me fulfill my end of the covenant in my own time and in my own way.’
So he sends Abraham a son just as He’s promised and ultimately Abraham’s descendants conquer in the land and establish it as the land of Israel.
The whole episode with Isaac was not about blind obedience and tests. It was about trusting that if God required, God would provide.
Hi cwald. The experience that you had was not to dissimilar from what I had that led me away from the church for awhile. After my release from ICU from the hospital after my OD I went back to church. Only to find I was suddenly without friends and persecuted. Even my long time friends and people in the church who I spent helping and doing work for free suddenly were whispering , pointing, backing away when I walked by. It didn’t help that the bishop and SP also seemed to say nothing and or address the situation. though I contained to do yard work for them and remained friends in non church activites. Nothing was done, I was continually refered to as a “murderer”. I left for many years in search of other churches with my non LDS friends. When I decided to come back to a different ward I felt welcomed and made many friends and served in many callings, until one day I bore my testimony to them. It went all down hill from there and just a repeat of what happened before. I left for a while again and came back to a new ward. I did not make the same mistake of bearing my testimony again and haven’t bore it since then for a long time now. So ya, I understand what it’s like to be judged and betrayed by the same people that were suopposed to be my most trusted.
At the same time, even though I don’t bear my testimony in church anymore, I don’t hold grudges against them. And do what I need to do for me and those that allow me to help them. At the same time, I very cautious around analogies and stories that have caused pain in the past or allows or encourages others to become judgmental.
I do not think in many situations it is intentional, or that the person is bad. I see it in most situations they are just repeating what they were taught. Kind of like the old school sports coaches. At the same time I don’t like hearing these stories told in a stern, condescending tone of lecture that I have heard them in. Sound just like the old school sports coaches but this is in church service. I don’t respond well to that tone although I’m sure they mean well. Although I’m stumped on the speeches that talk about magic checks and tithing, or giving thier fillings of thier teeth in argentinia to donate for the temple, or giving tithing even if it means your family will starve type stories.
But I must do what is best for me, filter out stuff that is harmful to me, and not to let anyone push me away from church again. This is our church, we belong here to just as much as anyone even if we aren’t traditional believers(which is ironic since many early LDS cincidered temple endowment to be a “truer form” of Freemason). Somehow it became taboo to openly think that way. Anyways we have a right to be at church and not let others judge us or push us away. It’s our church too, no matter what they think.
Quote:The whole episode with Isaac was not about blind obedience and tests. It was about trusting that if God required, God would provide.
I see your point– mercyngrace. Thank you. With regard to Abraham and obedience(blind obedience)test of faith analogy. I don’t see god ever putting that much trust in man to test faith of another. He choose to personally go to Abraham for a reason. I don’t think god test our faith through commands of what can amount to harmful obedience to try our faith. God has our address, he can test our faith there with(if he feels inclined). But I really like that thought, allowing faith in god to do his work he has planned for us.
mercyngrace wrote:Finally God says, ‘Listen I said I’d provide and I will. Stop trying to create your own heir from servants and illegitimate offspring. Stop trying to build up a kingdom in this land which has yet to be cleansed. Let me fulfill my end of the covenant in my own time and in my own way.’
So he sends Abraham a son just as He’s promised and ultimately Abraham’s descendants conquer in the land and establish it as the land of Israel.
The whole episode with Isaac was not about blind obedience and tests. It was about trusting that if God required, God would provide.
You just triggered a memory, that at the beginning of my faith transition journey, in 1993, I composed a Cantata entitled, “God will provide himself a Lamb for an offering.” I am not a natural composer, but it was an important effort to spend a lot of time with the Abraham story to render it in music.I don’t think I captured at the time the simplicity of the message you have given here in so few words.
I wonder, now that I view revelation as being in the heart and mind, and subject to human bias, if the Abraham and Isaac story is fundamentally different than the standard interpretation. If what you are saying is correct, then perhaps it wasn’t the Lord, but rather Abraham’s taking things into his own hands again in “thinking” that he needed to sacrifice Isaac: I cannot believe that god would do that. he was non-consciously prophetic in saying to Isaac, “God will provide himself a lamb for an offering”. Then god intervenes with the ram. God recognizes Abraham’s effort, that even if misguided, it demonstrated his devotion.
yet in the end, god always does provide the Lamb.
We decided to run up to Seattle and watch some Mariners baseball. Very spiritual experience, and good for the whole family. Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
The people in the bottom picture are awesome. 
Nice pix of cwald,jwald and little wald! You look a lot less green than your avatar! Heber13 wrote:Nice pix of cwald,jwald and little wald! You look a lot less green than your avatar!
Could you tell which one is jwald and which one is 17 old daughter? Jwald has aged nicely. She is 42. Who is who?
BTW…if these take too much space, go ahead and delete. Didn’t even know I could post a pic until I got tapatalk.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
You married above yourself, young man. jwald is beautiful (so is your daughter). For me, the eyes hold the key to differentiating in this photo. One set is expectant. The other shows life experience.
mercyngrace wrote:jwald is beautiful (so is your daughter).
For me, the eyes hold the key to differentiating in this photo. One set is expectant. The other shows life experience.
i thought cwald’s eyes conveyed: “hmmm…I’m enjoying this hugely overpriced mild drink made of barley…”
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.