Church 5 — couldn’t do it

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

Oh yeah…also he compared the Mormons to horses in training…to be the few select to be the King’s horses. They are trained their entire lives to obey their master…and then the trainers will withhold food and water from them for a few days, until they lather with hunger and parchment, then release them…and as they go running for water, they will blow the whistle. Most of the horses will continue to the water…but the few who stop and come back to the trainer….will be the chosen few who are selected to be the King’s horses.

That is such bull…..

And sadly…I was probably the only person in the room who believes that it was crap. That is what makes me sad…they just sit there and take it, and do nothing and say nothing to fix the problems. How many times, how many wards, has that HC gave that very same talk? Sickening.

Yes, that’s a bogus story. Surely the king’s horses have to be broken in and are selected in other ways.

But just remember this important poem about King’s horses –

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,

Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.

All the king’s horses and all the king’s men

Couldn’t put Humpty together again

The moral of the story is that the king’s horses were obedient, but couldn’t put a giant egg back together again… 😆

[img]http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/mwl/lowres/mwln10l.jpg[/img]

[Anonymous]

Sam, that is an abso-stinking-lutely awesome response.

If our purpose is simply to do exactly what others tell us to do (if the purpose of the horses simply is to carry their riders wherever those riders want to go without individual purpose or will), then the analogy works. However, if our purpose is to fix things and help others and learn to act on our own as “agents unto ourselves” (to quote the Book of Mormon), being nothing but obedient horses destroys that purpose completely.

Coercing horses to do whatever the master wants sounds a lot like Satan’s plan to me; finding a broken life and being able to help put it back together again sounds a lot like HF’s plan to me.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Sam, that is an abso-stinking-lutely awesome response.

If our purpose is simply to do exactly what others tell us to do (if the purpose of the horses simply is to carry their riders wherever those riders want to go without individual purpose or will), then the analogy works. However, if our purpose is to fix things and help others and learn to act on our own as “agents unto ourselves” (to quote the Book of Mormon), being nothing but obedient horses destroys that purpose completely.

Coercing horses to do whatever the master wants sounds a lot like Satan’s plan to me; finding a broken life and being able to help put it back together again sounds a lot like HF’s plan to me.

What more can I say. HF’s plan sounds good for both the horses and us. A partnership to be good stewards over the earth and each other rather then ruleing over and breaking the will of horses or others. I rejoice at such a plan. :clap:

[Anonymous]

CHURCH 6

Today at church the stake missionary gave a 40 minute talk that he titled “The Lords One True Church.”

I should have just left right there.

He started the talk with this announcement and then said his talk would be a testimony of the prophet Joseph Smith and why LDS church is the lords only true church and the kingdom of god on the face of the earth.

When he was finished they changed the hymn and sang praise to the man.

The whole thing was sickening to me.

Thank God I’m only doing an hour of SM right now. Not sure why I keep doing this to myself?

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[Anonymous]

Quote:

Not sure why I keep doing this to myself?

You might not always know why – but you know how much I respect and admire you for it. If it changes, it changes – but right now you are giving a service to at least your Branch President (and probably others) that is important to him, I am sure.

Fwiw, I go largely because I want to help others, not because I expect to be served or learn something new or even be understood totally. Everything good that happens is a blessing, and that approach allows me to recognize opportunities for blessings in things that otherwise might not seem to be blessings.

I really am at peace with myself, and that internal peace makes it easier for me to overlook messages with which I don’t agree – and even look for the parts of those messages with which I do agree and that can help me somehow. There have been very few talks that didn’t include something I could take from them – and, sometimes, they have been excellent catalysts for wonderful discussions with my wife and kids.

I’m deadly serious about that last part. I want to leave a better church for my children than the one I inherited from my own parents, and part of that is being very open with them about talks like the one you described and helping them see that they can make a difference that I want to make but probably won’t be able to do fully. Imagine the power of one of your children being in a position to make a real difference in a ward or branch – or stake or mission – largely because you didn’t give in and walk away.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

CHURCH 6

Today at church the stake missionary gave a 40 minute talk that he titled “The Lords One True Church.”

I should have just left right there.

Thank God I’m only doing an hour of SM right now. Not sure why I keep doing this to myself?

i dont know — i ask myself the same question all the time.

what i come up with in answer at the moment: I stay because…

…sometimes it goes the other direction–our meeting was all about why the gospel and church are different…

…some people, lacking maturity in faith, need the confidence that the term “One True Church” gives them…

…we are all at varying stages of development….

…its my tribe.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Ray. And Way.

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[Anonymous]

Cwald, today in my Sunday school class the teacher said this:

Quote:

Can I tell you the bumper sticker that I hate the most….

Those ones that say “COEXIST” with all the different religious symbols.

As if any religion will do, let’s not hurt anyone’s feelings, let’s just all hold hands and sing Kumbaya.

It drives me nuts.

It is not going to be like that…there are some that are going to heaven, and some that will burn in hell.

The context was about teaching about Alma and how Alma the Younger was converted…I don’t know why he got off on that tangent, but I almost stood up and walked out…but I told myself to stay and chalk it up to what wayfarer said

wayfarer wrote:

…some people, lacking maturity in faith, need the confidence that the term “One True Church” gives them…

…we are all at varying stages of development….

I’m not saying I think I’m more mature than he is, in fact, the fact I was stewing in my seat and not comfortable listening to others share their thoughts shows I still have work to do…but that is such a hot button when people at church feel the need to preach exclusive doctrine.

Third hour, a member of the bishopric taught an incredible lesson around Uchtdorf’s “in the middle” … It was so beautiful and inspiring and I was proud to be a member of a church that teaches such things.

It made me think…I may sometimes wonder why I keep going or why I stay, until I hear the things that speak to my spirit and lift me up.

Maybe we can’t have one without the other. The opposites are there at church for you to know the bitter and the sweet.I just hope for enough balance that the bitter does not outweigh the sweet. When it does, I need a break.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

It made me think…I may sometimes wonder why I keep going or why I stay, until I hear the things that speak to my spirit and lift me up.

Maybe we can’t have one without the other. The opposites are there at church for you to know the bitter and the sweet.I just hope for enough balance that the bitter does not outweigh the sweet. When it does, I need a break.

That is why I stay and one of the things I love about Mormonism. Those moments of talks that truly speak to the spirit. I don’t believe we can have one without the other. Everything in this universe requires balance(which is opposition in all things) including in our faith and ironically other faiths to oppose or challenge out faith to keep things in check as well as our faith with their teachings. Without opposition in all things, it goes by unchecked to it’s furthest extreme. To me in that case it means we all need each other. Ironic, given the bumper sticker talk.

[Anonymous]

Today jwald expressed a tremendous amount of frustration and discontent about church. These church 4 and church 6 days have not been good for us…just a testiment and reminder of all that is wrong with organized religion today. She feels church is doing more harm than good to our family.

We will go this weekend to the coast and do some crabbing and oyster feasting…and try again layer I suppose.

Jwald commented today about how sad she was that certain family members got involved in our business and how things were all OK…FOR YEARS…and now we have had all these stake folks in our branch trying to root out the apostasy…and how devastating it had been to the spiritual health of the branch.

She is right.

Very sad to me.

The branch is in trouble. I suggested we offer to help. She said the SP would never allow it, and it would just do more damage to us at this time…and probably the faithful branch members who are left as well.

She is right.

Jwald decided last year that we will either go to church together as a family, or we would stay home as a family.

I respect that…and now…I will stay home for a bit to support jwald, like she did last year to support me.

Peace.

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[Anonymous]

maybe jwald is right…detachment can help when the way is impassible.  it seems like you are at a crossroads here, and your choice matters.  when robert frost took the road less traveled, he realized that he may never come back to the crossroads where he would have a choice:

Robert Frost wrote:

The Road Not Taken

TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,

And sorry I could not travel both

And be one traveler, long I stood

And looked down one as far as I could

To where it bent in the undergrowth;

 

Then took the other, as just as fair,

And having perhaps the better claim,

Because it was grassy and wanted wear;

Though as for that the passing there

Had worn them really about the same,

 

And both that morning equally lay

In leaves no step had trodden black.

Oh, I kept the first for another day!

Yet knowing how way leads on to way,

I doubted if I should ever come back.

 

I shall be telling this with a sigh

Somewhere ages and ages hence:

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—

I took the one less traveled by,

And that has made all the difference.

i find it significant that the name of the poem is not “The Road Less Traveled”, as if to positively say that he had made the correct choice, but rather, “The Road Not Taken”, as if to long for a choice that cannot be unmade now.

maybe this is putting too much into a decision to be detached from full activity–given the ages of your children, there are impacts to these decisions, and yet, i don’t know the answers.

given the incredibly small size of the church, it may well be that the church isn’t for everyone.  i had learned this concept from alvin r. dyer’s book during my mission, and have always thought it true, but i have twisted it around:  if the church is “true for me” then i should follow it.  that doesn’t mean it is true for you or anyone else.  

When you say that the church is one of many paths, I can see why the local leaders take exception to that–they believe the Church is the One True Way ™.  For a completely different reason, I take a bit of an exception as well, because like Frost, I am one traveler, and cannot go down multiple ways.  So, I need to find the one that is true for me and commit to it.  i have chosen the Middle Way, and yet, it is hard, very hard at times for all the reasons you state.  Without the Church, the Middle Way is lonely, and doesn’t have a program for children to develop their social skills.  it doesn’t by itself fulfil the human need for community.  For many reasons, I choose a Middle Way within mormonism–a balancing act that for you, some within your family have made untenable with your SP.

but to stand at the crossroads and do nothing, or to leave the path without having another…I am not sure this is wise either.

like i said, i have no answers, only compassion for another wayfarer.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Sam, that is an abso-stinking-lutely awesome response.

If our purpose is simply to do exactly what others tell us to do (if the purpose of the horses simply is to carry their riders wherever those riders want to go without individual purpose or will), then the analogy works. However, if our purpose is to fix things and help others and learn to act on our own as “agents unto ourselves” (to quote the Book of Mormon), being nothing but obedient horses destroys that purpose completely.

Coercing horses to do whatever the master wants sounds a lot like Satan’s plan to me; finding a broken life and being able to help put it back together again sounds a lot like HF’s plan to me.

Thanks Ray… I think I would either end up with a bleeding lip hearing that, or would have to say something.

And I agree totally with the last part. Always remember Satan was the one who wanted rid of free will in Mormon theology.

[Anonymous]

cwald (and jwald),

I’m sorry it isn’t working out right now. To commiserate, I had one of those Sundays this week too.After sacrament meeting, I couldn’t even bring myself to attend Sunday School. It was just that disheartening. The speakers did a fine job with the topic they were given but the milk they shared was absent of spiritual nourishment and frankly, smelled a little sour. It was what I call “Prayer as a slot machine” Sunday. You spin the wheel and if your fervent prayer, God’s will, and your obedience align like three cherries, bingo! bango! You get your prayer answered! You might even get a piece of fried chicken.( http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2011/10/the-privilege-of-prayer?lang=eng&query=chicken+thigh+quarter )

Surely there must be something more to prayer than this… That’s rhetorical, of course, I believe that prayer actually has a much richer purpose than asking for stuff. I just wish someone in the meeting had said so.

[Anonymous]

mercyngrace wrote:

It was what I call “Prayer as a slot machine” Sunday. You spin the wheel and if your fervent prayer, God’s will, and your obedience align like three cherries, bingo! bango! You get your prayer answered! You might even get a piece of fried chicken.( http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2011/10/the-privilege-of-prayer?lang=eng&query=chicken+thigh+quarter)

first the talk starts with this concept:

Devn Cornish wrote:

God our Father is not a feeling or an idea or a force. He is a holy person who, as the scriptures teach, has a face and hands and a glorious immortal body. He is real, He knows each of us individually, and He loves us, every one. He wants to bless us.

I know we teach this, and preach this, but how is this relevant to prayer? How does it help me to understand how to pray to a god?

the whole story and idea is silly.

[Anonymous]

wayfarer wrote:

the whole story and idea is silly.

And crushing for those who pray and pray and pray, living right, doing what’s asked, only to feel like their prayers are bouncing off the ceiling while someone else in the ward miraculously finds a lost set of car keys.

[Author]

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