Church 5 — couldn’t do it

[Anonymous]

mercyngrace wrote:

wayfarer wrote:

the whole story and idea is silly.

And crushing for those who pray and pray and pray, living right, doing what’s asked, only to feel like their prayers are bouncing off the ceiling while someone else in the ward miraculously finds a lost set of car keys.

When we understand the nature of our non-conscious minds, and the power of prayer over what we can control, then finding quarters and lost keys becomes quite sensible, and rather mundane. I know this doesn’t help those seeking a miracle from prayer.

I truly think that coming to realize irrelevant the idea is of a personal god ‘out there’, who has a face and hands and a glorious immortal body, who is real, who knows each of us individually, and who loves us, every one. There is no-one ‘out there’ who wants to ‘bless us’, who has all power of the universe to do so. I know this is absolute heresy, but so be it.

Instead, I’ve come to understand that I have a divine companion, who is connected with the powers of the universe, here, inside of me. Call it ‘divine nature’. Call it ‘holy ghost’. Call it whatever we want. I choose to call it ‘god’, or ‘my heavenly father’. Others call it ‘jesus christ’. yeah, that works too. Maybe even my charioteer, Lord Krishna. A divine companion, here with me, and has been with me all my life. he or she’s not exactly ‘all-powerful’ of course, but as close as it gets from my viewpoint. Knows everything I know. Is my best friend. is connected with the divine internet, and can god-google answers, as long as the network is working — sometimes, though, the bandwidth is very low and answers don’t come very quickly. Sometimes the two of us are here trying to sort it out the best we can. I think Tevya in Fiddler on the Roof had the best relationship with his god — they talked, they laughed, the BSed… they were real with each other, and one gets a sense that tevya had no illusions that god would make things right by a simple prayer.

We go through life with this personal savior and redeemer — all of us. Some people even think that because they can perceive a presence, that they are touched by god and are a prophet, and so they preach a compelling story about themselves. Ah well…humans will be humans.

But when I realized that god may be just that — a presence within — then ‘prayer’ becomes rather different, does it not? I don’t expect my god to do things that are supernatural.

As an exercise, if I think of god as a wayfaring companion who doesn’t really speak in words, then if I ask a question, what happens? Through feeling and gesture, he helps me sort out my own problems. I can ask him to take care of things I don’t have power to take care of. Of course, since he’s not all powerful, some things just don’t get done, but he tried. more inportantly, he helped guide me to the inner peace of mind that allows me to take care of my own problems. He helps me recognize truth of things. He helps me by observing the feelings of others — he’s very good at observing others’ feelings, because he can communicate through non-verbal gesture to other ‘eternal companions’, and he can let me know when I’m offending or getting through to others — if I listen to his promptings.

If you’ve had a dog or a cat, their eternal companions — their nonconscious — can communicate to our non-conscious minds, except that dogs and cats aren’t so intellectually detached from their souls. They sense our feelings, and can quickly reflect back what we might not realize we are feeling. Who hasn’t felt comfort from a cherished dog or cat when personally troubled?

When we set aside the supernatural god, we are able to find a more meaningful god within. Does this deny the existence of a god out there? a father of all our spirits? Not at all — it’s just that to really deal with our own challenges and life, it’s more relevant to deal with the god who’s in me right here, right now.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

When we set aside the supernatural god, we are able to find a more meaningful god within. Does this deny the existence of a god out there? a father of all our spirits? Not at all — it’s just that to really deal with our own challenges and life, it’s more relevant to deal with the god who’s in me right here, right now.

I think the god within idea flatters too many people though. The west is already reeling from the spoilt generation.

[Anonymous]

SamBee wrote:

Quote:

When we set aside the supernatural god, we are able to find a more meaningful god within. Does this deny the existence of a god out there? a father of all our spirits? Not at all — it’s just that to really deal with our own challenges and life, it’s more relevant to deal with the god who’s in me right here, right now.

I think the god within idea flatters too many people though. The west is already reeling from the spoilt generation.

Hey, sam — a suggestion — it’s helps to use that little ‘quote’ button on the top right of the message, or within your text to put the =”wayfarer” after the term ‘quote’ in brackets.

I am with you that the god ‘within’ is misinterpreted and viewed on as part of a spoiled generation. the god within is not the conscious self, but rather, the non-conscious independent entity from my conscious mind. Further, the ‘god within’ is only such when it operates in perfect harmony with the ‘power of god’. When we think of the ‘god within’ as ‘the holy ghost’ in LDS thinking, then we recognize that there are a vast number of human states where the god within in being ignored, and therefore ineffective.

One of Joseph Smith’s most inspired verses was this:

Joseph Smith, in Moses 1:9-10 wrote:

And the presence of God withdrew from Moses, that his glory was not upon Moses; and Moses was left unto himself. And as he was left unto himself, he fell unto the earth.

And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.

When we detach from the power of god, then we do not exist. When we ignore our divine nature, the god within, the holy ghost, then we’re on our own, and this is the Way of death.

The Didache, an ancient, likely authentic scripture from the first century not included in the bible, states this explicitly:

Didache wrote:

There are two ways, one of life and one of death, but a great difference between the two ways.

The way of life, then, is this:

– First, you shall love God who made you;

– second, love your neighbor as yourself, and

– do not do to another what you would not want done to you.

And the way of death is this:

– First of all it is evil and accursed: murders, adultery, lust, fornication, thefts, idolatries, magic arts, witchcrafts, rape, false witness, hypocrisy, double-heartedness, deceit, haughtiness, depravity, self-will, greediness, filthy talking, jealousy, over-confidence, loftiness, boastfulness; persecutors of the good, hating truth, loving a lie, not knowing a reward for righteousness, not cleaving to good nor to righteous judgment, watching not for that which is good, but for that which is evil;

– from whom meekness and endurance are far, loving vanities, pursuing revenge, not pitying a poor man, not laboring for the afflicted, not knowing Him Who made them, murderers of children, destroyers of the handiwork of God, turning away from him who is in want, afflicting him who is distressed, advocates of the rich, lawless judges of the poor, utter sinners.

When we are in tune with the ‘god within’, or ‘the holy ghost’, if those terms are helpful to you, then we operate differently than the carnal man. we serve, we listen, we’re in tune with the spirit. We don’t just do anything our will tells us to do.

Saying that the god that we deal with is the god within does not negate the idea that there is a god ‘out there’ — in fact, the god within does not operate alone — to use Jung’s terminology, there is a ‘collective unconscious’, or the idea that the personal non-conscious mind within, ‘the holy ghost’, connects with the aggregate in a way that breeds harmony not just within me, but also, in my dealings with others. This is a power greater than ourselves.

In another post here, I explore how the god within, or, ‘a being that is one with the power of god’, can be fully reconciled with mormon theology and doctrine.

[Anonymous]

mercyngrace wrote:

What a ridiculous metaphor for discipleship.

That said, I’ve had the blessing/curse of being almost a non-stop speaker, teacher, instructor in the church and I’ve probably said and taught more ridiculous things than anyone. So I try to listen to the speaker’s talk more for insight into the speaker’s journey than for an articulation of absolute truths. More than anything, this helps me feel love for the speaker and a sense of communion with other flawed but well-intentioned followers of Christ.

It’s funny you had such a rough day yesterday, cwald, because here on the opposite coast I found myself thinking “How hard would it be to go inactive? Just, you know, for a little while….” I have a testimony of the gospel and I love my local church community. Sometimes, though, I’m just tired. As fate would have it, I was scheduled to teach two different classes yesterday so there was no way to duck out unnoticed.

This week, I have a talk and a lesson to prepare plus scouts.

I guess I’m just one of those horses who can’t resist the whistle, not because I’m a kiss-up, but because it’s my tribe. I feel a responsibility to contribute and know it’s the only way to make a difference for others like me, even when I’m feeling parched.

Not to derail your support thread but I’ve found myself struggling for the last two weeks with some institutional issues. Then, a week ago, I encountered a sister in my ward whose is going through a painful and difficult situation with her family and I was moved with compassion for her. I can’t take a sabbatical now, I want to help her bear this burden. As exhausted as I feel, I can’t walk away from her when she is in need of support, love, and a listening ear.

So maybe I am a stupid horse. The waters of a few consecutive lazy Sundays would taste great right about now but there’s that call I can’t seem to refuse – to be of service – and so, I turn around, head back into the meeting and sit beside a woman whose struggle may be largely unnoticed by others in the room. I put my arm around her and tell her that there is hope and affirm that God is, in my experience, much more merciful than we often imagine. And I go about the King’s business.

Maybe the metaphor isn’t so ridiculous after all.

Or maybe it isn’t about the brutality of the training so much as the horse’s willingness to deny himself on behalf of another.

This touched me, thanks for sharing this MercyNGrace.

“We see things not as they are, but as we are.”

Often the advise we give (myself too, when I teach) is often personal advice for ourselves.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

Jwald decided last year that we will either go to church together as a family, or we would stay home as a family.

I think this is what my family is coming to. I am the more active church attender because I do not have chronic health problems to the magnitude that my husband does. I hate it when I felt pressured or put pressure on myself to attend church without him for the sake of the “kids”. I wind up resenting him for not having to get dressed up and deal with people. Plus, our 7 year old usually chooses to act out at church when it is just her, me and her little sister. I also don’t like the double standard I see where if he is sick I should take the kids and go to church, but if I am sick the family stays home.

My husband has a new calling where he is the branch executive secretary, and so far that seems to have pulled him to church more.

cwald wrote:

I will stay home for a bit to support jwald, like she did last year to support me.

Peace.

Here is hoping that in applying this principle, we are “trading up”.

[Author]

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