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I would like it if they changed the program out of scouting to something less expensive, and less “military”. I have often wished there was a character-building, achievement-building program that didn’t involve uniforms, unfamiliar ceremonies, etcetera. As a YM leader who was not raised in scouting, I also found it was hard to understand the program given all the strange terminology they used. What I liked about the BSA programs was that if you didn’t like the church’s version, you could go to the community version somewhere — often these community based programs had better administration than our church programs.
Unfortunately, if the church comes out with its own program, I’m afraid it will be entwined with Mormon culture and doctrine, which isn’t a great alternative. Perhaps an expansion of the Duty to God Award. I can’t see the church putting together an alternative that spans multiple religious organizations like scouting does.
Another implication the BSA’s announcement, and their apparent snub of the LDS Church, is that LDS people who don’t have a problem with the BSA’s position could simply start their own community programs, which would weaken the LDS Young Men’s program.
Yet another alternative to the BSA, is to have a unified program for young men and young women. I know there is the Young Women Medallion program, but given the church’s more progressive stance toward men and women lately, a program that is similar for boys and girls would also help reduce the perception that the LDS church is male chauvinistic.
Here is a link to scouting organizations that represent alternatives to BSA…
http://www.troop97.net/scout_like.htmhttp://www.troop97.net/scout_like.htm” class=”bbcode_url”> I have to confess, I was always confused about how we had two programs in our church — the YM’s program, and the Scouting program. Scouting was always something we were trying to get going in most of the areas in which I lived. In a way, having one program will be better for the church than having two of them. And I hope the church addresses the racket of high prices for supplies that the BSA imposes on their members…
Finances have been mentioned by several posters and Scouting certainly is expensive. It is also a business with a well paid CEO, etc. Simply by the church being the largest sponsor of troops and that somewhere around 20% of all Scouts in the U.S. are LDS, the monetary contribution of the church and its members must make up a significant percentage of BSA’s income. But we also need to recall that many businesses and organizations like some local United Ways stopped donating to Scouting over the past 10-15 years because of BSA’s anti-gay policies. I’m just trying to look at another point of view, but is is possible that on the big ledger the BSA corporates have realized that if they had that money from those now non-donors back it would outweigh what the church contributes. I’m not sure they expected this response from the church, but they may well have. Also, in the media the church has often been compared with the Catholic church and Southern Baptists as organizations with similar religious stances regarding gays. The big difference that the media is for the most part likely unaware of is that Scouting is part of our program and troops are pretty much required in each ward or branch. It is the activity arm of the YM program. This is not true for either the Catholic or Southern Baptist organizations. They sponsor troops because their individual congregations choose to support a troop, not because they are required to do so as a matter of policy. They can fold their troops any time they want without have to answer to the higher church authorities, a bishop is not as free to do so.
It’s the way of the world, I’ve seen legislation come up again and again and again and finally pass when a few key opponents are out of town on vacation. Sometimes you have to wait until Harold B. Lee isn’t around to get a few things done. :angel: From the article:
Quote:In spite of a request to delay the vote, it was scheduled at a time in July when members of the Church’s governing councils are out of their offices and do not meet.
The vote was 45-12. Jeffrey Holland and Stephen Owen were two of the 12 votes in opposition so the church did get to vote at least twice. Unless the church had
severalpotential voters that weren’t able to cast their vote I don’t see them making up the difference. The outcome of the vote probably wouldn’t have been different even with all church people back from vacation. Now thanks to the statement the church comes out looking really bad, at least in my opinion.
- The statement from the church is very shortsighted. Missing the vote could have worked to their advantage, it could have been an opportunity for them to avoid the embarrassment. Still I have to admire their convictions. They probably wanted to go on record as standing up for something they truly believe in, even if that meant losing anyway and earning a political black eye in the process.
- At the end of May Robert Gates called for an end to the ban on gay leaders. Church leaders missed a sign of the times. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the BSA vote cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you on vacation.
- The resolution has a provision to allow “religious or other like-minded organizations” (sick burn?) to come up with their own policies. So… what’s the problem? This isn’t a very charitable guess but I think the church enjoyed hiding behind a global rule. Now the church is in the position of fully owning the responsibility for their choices. That said, given the language in the church’s response I don’t think they care very much about how the church is perceived. A more favorable interpretation, maybe they feel like gay leaders pose a potential threat to the boys and the concern comes from scouting events like jamborees or scout camp where scouts interact with leaders from other non-LDS troops.
Frankly I’m embarrassed by this response. I’m honestly starting to feel embarrassed to be a member. Empty or no, this response reads like a threat. I suspect the church will finally start to soften their position once it becomes obvious that the hardline position undermines the missionary effort.
DarkJedi wrote:[scouting] is the activity arm of the YM program.
I live in heartland SLC, and I have never seen ( but RARELY ) a single troop that functioned. I’ve been a scouter my whole life, an Eagle, and also participated in some of the heavy training. The boy led program of scouting doesn’t work. Every ward I have seen and worked with, the “activity” night involving basketball or something else has always been “the YM program.”
Sorry. This is what I have seen right in the middle of SLC. So, if the church leaves BSA,..I actually don’t see it having much of an impact at the local level–other than many will probably have a sigh of relief.
The part I don’t understand is why is the Church so concerned at this higher level when there is so much dysfunction that seems to be ignored at the local level where the rubber meet the road?
Roy wrote:If I remember correctly Benji had been talking to the bishop in hopes of working through his same sex attraction. I believe that around this same time he had kissed another young man but I might be wrong about that. What I do remember clearly was that at no time was Benji in breach of the law of chastity (as in sexual relations) and he still got a star on his record and was told that he would never be able to work with the youth. Reportedly his bishop felt terrible about it but his hands were tied by church policy.
My memory from that podcast, which was some time ago, is that Benji did “let loose” for a time and there was a real need for confession. I could be wrong on that, maybe that came after he left the church.
Orson wrote:Roy wrote:If I remember correctly Benji had been talking to the bishop in hopes of working through his same sex attraction. I believe that around this same time he had kissed another young man but I might be wrong about that. What I do remember clearly was that at no time was Benji in breach of the law of chastity (as in sexual relations) and he still got a star on his record and was told that he would never be able to work with the youth. Reportedly his bishop felt terrible about it but his hands were tied by church policy.
My memory from that podcast, which was some time ago, is that Benji did “let loose” for a time and there was a real need for confession. I could be wrong on that, maybe that came after he left the church.
That makes more sense. While bishop from 2001 to 2006, the only instruction I was given was with people that confessed to homosexual acts, or crimes against children.
Once the disciplinary counsel was done, SLC would mark their membership record. All the record said was that the bishop should call SLC for further information. This was for when the person moved to a new ward and a new bishop.
Confessing to same sex feelings is not needed as it is not a sin, and no action is needed.
Rob4Hope wrote:DarkJedi wrote:[scouting] is the activity arm of the YM program.
I live in heartland SLC, and I have never seen ( but RARELY ) a single troop that functioned. I’ve been a scouter my whole life, an Eagle, and also participated in some of the heavy training. The boy led program of scouting doesn’t work. Every ward I have seen and worked with, the “activity” night involving basketball or something else has always been “the YM program.”
Sorry. This is what I have seen right in the middle of SLC. So, if the church leaves BSA,..I actually don’t see it having much of an impact at the local level–other than many will probably have a sigh of relief.
The part I don’t understand is why is the Church so concerned at this higher level when there is so much dysfunction that seems to be ignored at the local level where the rubber meet the road?
I attended scout camp with my son when he was eleven and then for a day at a time as a member of the bishopric and witnessed several successful boy led troops. The catch is they were sponsored by other churches, were large with 30-40 boys, and it was clear the cadre of leadership was in charge. The scoutmaster and his assistants stood in the back and supervised but it was the senior scouts and the patrol leaders that ran the show. I remember people in the stake speak with disdain about “hobby scouters” but from what I saw they were the ones making a differences not some poor soul that was called to be in charge of a church troop of ten or fewer boys. If the church were out of scouts, then boys that were interested could bridge into a functioning troop and have a chance at a good experience the way BP envisioned.
GBSmith wrote:I attended scout camp with my son when he was eleven and then for a day at a time as a member of the bishopric and witnessed several successful boy led troops. The catch is they were sponsored by other churches, were large with 30-40 boys, and it was clear the cadre of leadership was in charge. The scoutmaster and his assistants stood in the back and supervised but it was the senior scouts and the patrol leaders that ran the show.
This is how my troop was, and though we probably had 40-60 Scouts on the books, typical weekly attendance was more in the high teens to low 20s. Once in a while when we were planning something big, we’d actually get 30-35 attending. The adult leaders made a few announcements, then sat back and mentored those who needed it while acting more as advisors to the SPL, ASPL and PLs who conducted the meetings. Camping, the adults had a somewhat more active role, as the youth leadership was doing a lot more hands-on work, (leading by example) so the adults were more available than the SPL/ASPL at that time, though even then it was usually a process of PLs seeking guidance from the adults to work out an issue on their own.
Frankly, looking back on it, I’m impressed with the guys we had as SPLs and ASPLs during my time in Scouts. Sure, we were still kids, and we all screwed up plenty, but I see a lot of “professional leaders” who couldn’t do as good a job of keeping a room full of teenage boys under control. I remember being a PL for a while, (and somehow the backup ASPL, though that was usually only needed when attendance was way down due to school activities interfering – our SPL/ASPL were rarely out for any other reason) but I only had 3-4 Scouts to deal with as PL at most meetings; I can’t see the leadership benefits really appearing until you have to lead more than you can easily keep track of in your head. (Having the full patrol (
there made for a much different dynamic that needed a whole new category of skills, and the whole group was a different kettle of fish altogether even when the room was mostly empty.)Quote:If the church were out of scouts, then boys that were interested could bridge into a functioning troop and have a chance at a good experience the way BP envisioned.
Amen – and amen.
GBSmith wrote:Rob4Hope wrote:DarkJedi wrote:[scouting] is the activity arm of the YM program.
I live in heartland SLC, and I have never seen ( but RARELY ) a single troop that functioned. I’ve been a scouter my whole life, an Eagle, and also participated in some of the heavy training. The boy led program of scouting doesn’t work. Every ward I have seen and worked with, the “activity” night involving basketball or something else has always been “the YM program.”
Sorry. This is what I have seen right in the middle of SLC. So, if the church leaves BSA,..I actually don’t see it having much of an impact at the local level–other than many will probably have a sigh of relief.
The part I don’t understand is why is the Church so concerned at this higher level when there is so much dysfunction that seems to be ignored at the local level where the rubber meet the road?
I attended scout camp with my son when he was eleven and then for a day at a time as a member of the bishopric and witnessed several successful boy led troops. The catch is they were sponsored by other churches, were large with 30-40 boys, and it was clear the cadre of leadership was in charge. The scoutmaster and his assistants stood in the back and supervised but it was the senior scouts and the patrol leaders that ran the show. I remember people in the stake speak with disdain about “hobby scouters” but from what I saw they were the ones making a differences not some poor soul that was called to be in charge of a church troop of ten or fewer boys. If the church were out of scouts, then boys that were interested could bridge into a functioning troop and have a chance at a good experience the way BP envisioned.
I have had similar experiences. The troop my sons went to when our troop was dysfunctional was very much as you described but somewhat smaller. We did look at a larger troop that was also well run (by the boys) in a neighboring town that was bigger. The deciding factor actually had to do with cost of their activities. The closer smaller troop tended to do smaller and closer activities while the larger one seemed to have to have bigger, farther away, more expensive activities. (For instance they didn’t camp locally, although there are plenty of good areas, and always included Sunday.) But I agree, the best run troops I have encountered are sponsored by other organizations and run by boys.
I will throw in here that my ward’s troop is a bit unusual for a church troop. The Scoutmaster is not especially orthodox church wise and probably only attends when he does because of his calling. He is a manager at his work and often chooses to work Sundays to have time off for Scout activities. Our troop is somewhat large, but the vast majority are not members. However, the troop is also not boy run and the committee (also a vital part of successful troops I have seen) is essentially non-functional. I believe if the church divests itself of Scouting he will simply go to another troop. Interestingly, the troop he came from was sponsored by a Catholic Parish and was disbanded a couple years ago although they still have a pack, so I’m not sure where he would go. From one point of view he is a real Scouter – his son has not been active in the troop for well over a year (except for the really fun trips) yet he is as gung ho as ever. I actually don’t like the guy very much as a person and try to avoid him, but I might have to strike up a conversation to see how he feels about this news.
If the church decides to move away from Scouting, and has to re-think the YM program then, I think it’s a perfect juncture to introduce parity in to the Young Women’s program: 1) Financial parity. There should be a lot of money freeing up.
2) Adventure parity (girl’s should have high-adventure and not just low-adventure).
3) Non-gender-biased parity in learning core competencies that some of Scouting provides and that are not provided by public education.
4) Non-gender-biased parity in allowing girls to explore areas of interest for careers and hobbies that the boys were allowed/encouraged to explore via merit badges and activities.
5) Getting rid of or at least paring back the Priesthood baby sitting that is mandatory for Young Women. I’ve known of so many activities that get shut down, because a priesthood leader can’t go along. I think that model is ridiculous in this day and age.
Rob4Hope wrote:DarkJedi wrote:[scouting] is the activity arm of the YM program.
I live in heartland SLC, and I have never seen ( but RARELY ) a single troop that functioned. I’ve been a scouter my whole life, an Eagle, and also participated in some of the heavy training. The boy led program of scouting doesn’t work. Every ward I have seen and worked with, the “activity” night involving basketball or something else has always been “the YM program.”
Sorry. This is what I have seen right in the middle of SLC. So, if the church leaves BSA,..I actually don’t see it having much of an impact at the local level–other than many will probably have a sigh of relief.
The part I don’t understand is why is the Church so concerned at this higher level when there is so much dysfunction that seems to be ignored at the local level where the rubber meet the road?
Outside the corridor I have seen it only kind-of working for about 10% to maybe 20% of the wards. One overriding issue is that we separate out the older boys (twice actually) and that is a key to having a boy led troop. A 16 year old is looked up to much more by an 11 year old boy and when you get a few good 16 year old leaders in a row that do their job well the 11 year old grows up to want to be like that good 16 year old leader. You get a 13 year old and they generally just seen as a peer that they may respect, but don’t esteem him like a cool mature 16 year old. Scoutmasters are just old farts (certainly describes me).My DH and I were walking a couple nights ago and discussing what we would put together as an alternative to the scouting program. We came up with a list that was very similar to this list I found online: http://ethesis.blogspot.com/2015/07/down-at-ymia.html?m=1 The church has made sure our youth know how to say no to tea and coffee and alcohol. They haven’t taught the youth how to do that in a way that does not offend the host. They haven’t taught communication styles, the nuances of body language, the process of interviewing for a position. Contracts, leases, and the basics of finance.
I recently had a chat with my RM son who is almost 1/2 way through college and I was shocked how ignorant he was to home financing, interest rates, equity, etc. We have talked about it before but I guess he wasn’t listening at all. There are some hardcore Scouters in the church, not everyone called is called just to fill the gap. I have known some bishops and stake presidents who are very pro-Scouting and in some cases very involved (we had a stake president who was on the council executive board for years). Many leaders are Eagle Scouts and many bishops/stake presidents have been young men’s president at some point. So, if we divorce ourselves from BSA do you think there will be any pushback? I realize these guys are for the most part are very orthodox and will do whatever the handbook says, but I can also see some of them thinking this would be a bad move. Thoughts?
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