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Always Thinking wrote:
I was going for the thought of maybe it’s a legal thing. But since the Catholic church has apologized, that makes it difficult to see as a good reason. Unless after those apologies the Catholic church faced legal issues from them.
This also weighs into the discussion about the Catholic church:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlements_and_bankruptcies_in_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlements_and_bankruptcies_in_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases Quote:According to Donald Cozzens, “by the end of the mid 1990s, it was estimated that… more than half a billion dollars had been paid in jury awards, settlements and legal fees.” This figure grew to about one billion dollars by 2002. Roman Catholics spent $615 million on sex abuse cases in 2007.
I don’t know if that was the result of an apology that directly led to lawsuits or settlements to lawsuits that would have been brought up regardless.
SilentDawning wrote:…DHO’s statement that “we neither seek or give apologies” sounds incredibly unChristlike for an organization with a divine commission. I would expect an organization headed by Christ to try to make restitution when it does things wrong.
But the church never does wrong
SilentDawning wrote:…They [the hierarchy] are often right but so often are dead wrong….I wish they would acknowledge it. It would mean a lot to me.
And the same with me!Or if the lawsuits were already there…might as well apologize and avoid more??? Don’t know. I call myself Amateur Parent because I do my best — but I still make many mistakes. By claiming my Amateur status, it makes it easier to apologize to my children when I don’t get parenting done correctly. To me, the ability to apologize, talk about the problem, and move on within the parent-child relationship is healthy and extremely important. It is Christian. The Church is too often so authoritarian in their approach, that when there is a serious concern about the actions of the organization, the leaders can be over-focused on maintaining the public image of authority and power. They can cause more harm through that stance. At some point, I am hoping they learn the power of approachability, accountability, and sincere apology.
Self-quote: Reuben wrote:It seems to follow the same script my parents did: maintain authority by maintaining the appearance of infallibility.
After mentally reviewing my own leadership experience, I’ve got more possible explanations.
As HPGL, I had the “opportunity” to make a difficult home teaching assignment. I approached one brother about it, and he told me the reasons him being the home teacher could put him in a tough, awkward position. He seemed against the idea. But there were also some good reasons it could work out well. I strongly felt he was the right person, so after deliberation, we (the HPG leadership) assigned him as a home teacher. He humbly accepted.
After a couple of months, it became clear the assignment had put him in exactly the tough, awkward position he had predicted. It obviously cost him emotionally. We reassigned him, but never apologized. Just saying “I’m sorry I didn’t take your concerns more seriously” would have almost immediately healed the minor rift that had grown between us. Instead, I thanked this faithful high priest, breathed a sigh of relief, and moved on. I left him in a position where he had to forgive me without my acknowledging wrongdoing. (Fortunately, knowing this man and his background, he probably did forgive me quickly.)
So why didn’t I apologize?
Reason #1: It just didn’t occur to me that this was a situation that called for an apology. (FWIW, I now think this is the primary reason my parents never apologized when I was a child.) In fact, I considered it for the first time only yesterday.
Reason #2: I believed it was God who told me to do it. I felt like I had learned something about listening to those in my stewardship.
Reason #3: Thinking about it now, I realize that apologizing would have meant admitting God was wrong, or admitting that how I received revelation was wrong, or at least having to grapple with a faith-threatening inconsistency. I wasn’t willing to do any of that.
These reasons probably all hold, all the way up the church hierarchy.
amateurparent wrote:I call myself Amateur Parent because I do my best — but I still make many mistakes. By claiming my Amateur status, it makes it easier to apologize to my children when I don’t get parenting done correctly. To me, the ability to apologize, talk about the problem, and move on within the parent-child relationship is healthy and extremely important. It is Christian.
The Church is too often so authoritarian in their approach, that when there is a serious concern about the actions of the organization, the leaders can be over-focused on maintaining the public image of authority and power. They can cause more harm through that stance. At some point, I am hoping they learn the power of approachability, accountability, and sincere apology.
What!? And stop using “Because I said so?” Preposterous!
😈 Reuben wrote:So why didn’t I apologize?
Reason #1: It just didn’t occur to me that this was a situation that called for an apology. (FWIW, I now think this is the primary reason my parents never apologized when I was a child.) In fact, I considered it for the first time only yesterday.
Reason #2: I believed it was God who told me to do it. I felt like I had learned something about listening to those in my stewardship.
Reason #3: Thinking about it now, I realize that apologizing would have meant admitting God was wrong, or admitting that how I received revelation was wrong, or at least having to grapple with a faith-threatening inconsistency. I wasn’t willing to do any of that.
These reasons probably all hold, all the way up the church hierarchy.
Very good observations. Thanks for sharing.
amateurparent wrote:I call myself Amateur Parent because I do my best — but I still make many mistakes. By claiming my Amateur status, it makes it easier to apologize to my children when I don’t get parenting done correctly. To me, the ability to apologize, talk about the problem, and move on within the parent-child relationship is healthy and extremely important. It is Christian.
The Church is too often so authoritarian in their approach, that when there is a serious concern about the actions of the organization, the leaders can be over-focused on maintaining the public image of authority and power. They can cause more harm through that stance. At some point, I am hoping they learn the power of approachability, accountability, and sincere apology.
I wish there was an asymptotic Like button for this post from AP above.
I know the church has to be careful so it doesn’t admit fault and cause lawsuits and financial loss, but in my experience, they make mistakes that are of the interpersonal
variety, and they don’t even seem to want to apologize for those. Arrogance is alive in well among many leaders…
Thank you Reuben for the thoughtful introspection. Come to think of it I don’t remember ever being in a situation where my boss apologized to me or to the employees generally. Such things just are not that common.
Also, in fairness the church leaders have recently come out and made statements to the effect that church leaders make mistakes. That sort of thing can certainly be a precursor to an environment where apologies can come forth.
Reuben, I like the reflection and I see it pretty valid too. I think you mentioned how part of the reason comes in because of your own faith as a leader that it was God’s dealing, not yours, and you don’t need to apologize for God. I think that plays into this big time. What if that guy in the HP came to you personally and said that it was something really really dificult, he doesn’t know if he can stay in the church, he specifically told you his concerns and now it was exactly what he feared, he tried to have faith and trust but now it is broken. If only you could apologize, he thinks he could stay in the ward.
Would you feel like an apology should be given?
1) I am always hesitant to apologize on behalf of other people. 2) It is hard to apologize for something if you don’t feel what you did was wrong.
3) A lot of leaders are wary of apologizing for one thing to one person or group of people, because they fear a Pandora’s Box of everyone else demanding an apology. That is a valid concern when so many people want or demand apologies – for big AND little things.
4) I have a hard time agreeing that the Church leadership doesn’t repent. They don’t apologize publicly often (see #1 above), but they do make changes quite often – both by stopping some things and by doing /teaching new things.
5) If I am forced to choose between an apology and a change, I will take the change every time.
Now, having said all of that, I wish the leadership would acknowledge mistakes and doctrinal changes more openly – and a direct apology would be nice in some cases. It is a serious issue, especially because of how it is perceived – but it is an institutional issue for nearly all organizations and their leadership.
Very good points from several people. The comment about “God told me, so I am NOT going to apologize for God” does seem like it could even come from a very kind person that is also trying very hard to be faithful. But if I step back and look at church leadership and kind of bunch them together, my feelings as of late are very much that I can’t fully trust them and they will protect their image at any cost. They will be the most gracious people around until you cross that line. I deal with some people at work that seem to be the same in a way. Great to work with, but if you ever disagree with something that they have decided or project they are sponsoring, you will pay for it and they won’t come out and say it, but you will find out soon and for years to come how they were working for your demise.
A statement that should be able to be asked like, “Is the policy on practicing gay couples children possibly in the same category as the priesthood and temple ban on blacks?” is something that maybe I could ask in High Priests, but in any bigger context that question can’t be asked. That challenge to leadership is not allowed.
I am not that crazy hanging around a friend that, or trusting them deeply, given they can’t seem to handle much of any differing opinions. Kind of like having your in-laws being super-duper 100% Trump supporters and you being a democrat – or visa versa. You just don’t want to hang around with them as you can’t have a logical discussion even when you are not trying to change their mind. Anything against Trump is seen as automatically wrong.
In summary of my long rant – this area is a big part of my issue with the church. Not so much that they won’t do apologies as they could do a lot more admitting the church and leaders have made mistakes without apologizing. Not apologizing is a symptom of not wanting to admit in a bigger way that they are ever wrong.
On behalf of the Church, I apologize for everything the Church has done to offend anyone. OK, are we good?
LookingHard wrote:But if I step back and look at church leadership and kind of bunch them together, my feelings as of late are very much that I can’t fully trust them and they will protect their image at any cost. They will be the most gracious people around until you cross that line.
Agreed.
I have also noticed that when you get up higher, they are more blunt about your numbers, whether your efforts are good enough, etcetera. It’s like you are taken for granted. I witnessed that first hand when I needed to be released as HPGL. The arrogance was unparalleled. I was not impressed.
And so, they consequences have followed. Leaders frustrated they can’t use Brother SD for so many callings they need filled. For me, it’s a natural consequence of bad management and a lack of humility on their part.
On Own Now wrote:On behalf of the Church, I apologize for everything the Church has done to offend anyone.
OK, are we good?
😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 This is exactly the kind of thing that has irked me in the past. I did receive an apology once, but it was from a person remote to the situation that had no stake in the bad decision that affected me. It was hollow, and it didn’t undo the damage to testimony and deflated expectations about this supposedly perfect and divine organization I had given my soul to (literally). This was in spite of the fact a Bishop, and official church representative, did the apologizing. But he was still too removed from the situation to make his apology meaningful.
I don’t know what it takes to make apologies meaningful — normally you are expected just to forgive and move on. Ideally, that is the best way, but there is nothing like restitution or some act that cancels the wrong, or compensates for it. Words are cheap….
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