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I recently set in on a court for a young man sent home from his mission. It was the first time I have been involved in something like this. I really felt uncomfortable with the whole thing. I want to say up front that it was done very respectfully and the young man had great courage to face the 15 men that sat there. I don’t want to go into any detail, first out of respect and 2nd because the court did not really ask for any(I was very grateful for that). I will say that there were some unconfressed sin commited before departing for his mission. Several of them. I
My questions and thoughts are the following:
1) Do we put too much pressure on the youth or maybe all members to be perfect?Y
2) This kid is a leader’s son and is there more pressure on them?
3) With the church’s position on the M word and every thing concerning that is the church doing damage to all these young people(and even us older members also)?
My answers.
1) No. We do seek perfection, I feel comfortable with seeking that but I don’t think we expect that. I think we need to be more realistic with our expectation and teach things differently. Perfection is a long process which we will not achieve during this life. We teach about repentance all the time so we should expect their to be sin and that is part of this whole process.
2) Yes, I do think we expect more from the leader’s kids than other and I don’t think that we should.
3) Yes. I think that this idea that we arn’t sexual being and that our bodies are of to respond to nature is so unreal. I think many people could avoid major sin by taking care of business themselves and there shouldn’t be all this guilt. The young people who let this guilt get to them learn to hate themselves and I think this is so wrong.
What do you guys think?
1) I agree that for most people, “normal people”, there is not too much pressure to be “perfect” simply because most people are equipped to realize that perfection is unattainable, and we therefore simply try to do the best we reasonably can. However, there are individuals, one of which is very close to me, that are deeply harmed by the rhetoric of perfection. Anyone with a tendency toward scrupulosity (a form of OCD) takes these admonitions at face value — that is to say very seriously — and can basically get pretty screwed up by them. 2) It’s always been urban legend that leader’s children are under the microscope, and it seems like this would be true. We put unrealistic expectations on our leaders, so why not their kids and pets?
3) Yes, the chuch has a poor history of dealing constructively with sexuality. IMO, it’s really not their prerogative to insert themselves at anywhere near the level that they do in this arena. No pun intended. I think the church can and perhaps should make general guidelines and expectations of uprightness and morality, but it is the arena of and responsibility for the family to discuss details of sexuality, what may and may not be appropriate, etc. The church/church leaders have a particularly annoying habit of making bold declarations of one kind or another, those dealing with specific sexual behaviour conspicuous among them, and then when they find the times have passed them by, or when there is a backlash against their perceived meddlesomeness, they will
quietlywithdraw the teaching, or simply stop repeating and/or publishing it, thus creating confusion and sometimes dissension in the ranks. Yes, yes, and yes. Generally speaking, “yes” to all three questions. I know we teach grace and forgiveness and mercy and everything else necessary to combat our collective perfection complex, but I think the “expressed balance” (the ratio of what members hear on a regular basis) is out of whack.
church0333 wrote:
With the church’s position on the M word and every thing concerning that is the church doing damage to all these young people(and even us older members also)?Yes. I think that this idea that we arn’t sexual being and that our bodies are of to respond to nature is so unreal. I think many people could avoid major sin by taking care of business themselves and there shouldn’t be all this guilt. The young people who let this guilt get to them learn to hate themselves and I think this is so wrong.
I hope this isn’t too sensitive…
This is a serious problem in Mormonville. I grew up in a small cowtown in Northern UT. I discovered M on my own, and quickly learned that it was a powerful way to drown the pains of adolescence. I think much of my inactivity in the Church as a young man was motivated by the fact that I felt like complete scum because of M….I was a
verygood kid, and M was the worst thing I had ever done. Fast forward a few years to the MTC–I hadn’t told anyone about it. The MTC drills down on young men and women in the first week or so to purge old sins…I finally told my BP there, and a huge weight lifted. During my mission I did it maybe once every three weeks to a month, and it completely robbed me of self-confidence. I felt worthless as a missionary. When I was going home, my MP issued me a temple recommend and told me that if I M’d just once, I should tear it up. I promptly did the first night home, ripped up my TR, and didn’t get back for three years. All over a stupid peccadillo. It seems that although M can be a “gateway” drug, it is not as bad as I had thought. The weight that our culture gives it is asymmetrical to its actual sinfulness, and sensitive, compliant, scrupulous people like me end up feeling like complete dirt as a result. I’m not saying it shouldn’t be addressed or diminished, but its certainly not as bad as the culture seems to be saying. If a few priesthood leaders had said so in young men’s and EQ, I might have felt a lot better about myself.
Incidentally, since I lost the belief that M is horribly sinful, I do it a lot less. It’s like it has completely lost its power over me in every way. I don’t think this is unusual.
Doug, good point about the leaders. Many years ago, when I was a missionary, I heard tell of an elder who was sent home and (most likely) excommunicated. The elder was an assistant to the president in a neighboring mission and I had had opportunity to meet him a few times and found him to be earnest and likable. When I later heard that he had been sent home for sexual misconduct, I was quite shocked. This is what came to mind as I considered the questions posed: 1. Do we put too much pressure on youth to be perfect? Sometimes we do. This elder’s problem was discovered because he tried to commit suicide. He was saved and it all came out. We emphasize perfection but fail to emphasize repentance. Oh, we give plenty of lip service to repentance but I believe, culturally, we expect approximations of perfection. How much better to NEVER sin! our leader say. And, yes it’s true, but denies the power of the atonement. This poor young man was in such agony over his regrettably serious misstep that he attempted to take his own life. Why? Because his sense of shame overwhelmed his understanding of the atonement.
2. More pressure on leaders? Yes. I was shocked because the elder was an AP. Whenever I retell that story, I never fail to mention that fact. Whenever any salacious story is told, we add to the notoriety of the event by mentioning their position in the Church. (…and he’s a bishop! She was a Relief Society President! He’s an RM. etc.)
3. Damage done? I do not know the details of his sexual misconduct but I imagine that he was in a situation where those feelings overwhelmed his ability to reason and forecast. That’s actually one of the appeals of the act; it washes away rational, conventional thought in a flood of pleasure. So it has its place in all our lives. Unfortunately, members of the Church are all atwist inside because of sex. I don’t advocate a wholly liberal view but the restrictive, let’s-not-ever-talk-about-what-we-all-do is not healthy either. Young men and women are constantly told “don’t do it” “don’t do it” and consider it and any hint of it evil . And then they are exposed to something like pornography or a willing partner and a dam breaks for many. To be honest, I don’t know what the solution is. There must be balance but I don’t know what that balance ought to be. My guess is that the Church leaders don’t know either and have decided to err on the side of caution. It’s a sticky wicket.
Generally yes to all 3. As I was best friends with the SP son growing up and watched the expectations shift on him as his father moved up the ranks. It’s unfair to them. Perfection is overemphasized to the extent that in order to get balance there would have to be equal amount of talks on stumbling and growing up bring ok. Growing up it was about 80% perfectionism a d 20 % ish it’s ok if you stumble. I think it will very from ward to ward or steak but it didn’t for me as I moved around southern California and Utah. The M word…. If there wasn’t scheduled interviews to probe you about this very question every six months(at least when I was growing up). I didn’t struggle with it but being hounded to death about it for doing it at all left me feeling extremely guilty to the point I was praying for forgiveness everyday many times for a hour a night and to come back in tears to the bishops even after not doing again after 3 or 4 months and being told I wasn’t forgiven by the church yet to take sacrament was extremely painful. I grew up think well then I need to pray at least 2 or 3 hours everynight to be forgiven for this for at least 4-6 months. That’s the impression I got from the 6 month interviews from different bishops. Because it took extreme sorrow and a long length of time to be forgiven for it I felt like I had just murdered someone. It wasn’t healthy. I hope we’re doing better at this. I times I still struggle with the shame of temptation from it, even having the temptation without giving in has me feeling very shameful at times on my needs repenting for even having temptation. In light because I hadn’t experienced a lighter approach to this yet. I hope my future son doesn’t go through this experience. I would love to hear any positive experiences from other bishops or SP on a more healthy approach. It would give me hope for my future son. I know of many guys that didn’t go on missions because of this and members who beneath themselves up for the same reasons. My mission president told us in public to repent but in private he told us to not concentrate on that but work hard in the end never asked about it in interview and had no problem giving a TR to his missionaries going home that still had issues with only that. Maybe he was a man a head of his time. Yes. Yes.
Yes.
Forgotten_Charity wrote:I didn’t struggle with it but being hounded to death about it for doing it at all left me feeling extremely guilty to the point I was praying for forgiveness everyday many times for a hour a night and to come back in tears to the bishops even after not doing again after 3 or 4 months and being told I wasn’t forgiven by the church yet to take sacrament was extremely painful. I grew up think well then I need to pray at least 2 or 3 hours everynight to be forgiven for this for at least 4-6 months. That’s the impression I got from the 6 month interviews from different bishops. Because it took extreme sorrow and a long length of time to be forgiven for it I felt like I had just murdered someone.
I really does feel like you’ve just murdered someone. The punishment really doesn’t fit the “crime”, does it?
I think all three depend on who you associate within the church. 1. I don’t think there is too much focus on perfection as there is a focus on making sure we all commit the same kinds of sins. Some things are allowed, some are not. What would we do if everyone took the directions on meat in the WoW as seriously as the ones for coffee?
2. There are some great leaders that don’t put more pressure on, but they are few and far between. My former bishop had two great sons that passed the expected missionary ages without serving a mission. If it was brought up he would put on a friendly smile and say lovingly: “I don’t know what their plans for the future are, but they are great boys, and they will make the right choice for them.” It wasn’t long before everyone else just wasn’t interested anymore.
I also liked when our Stake Patriarch was talking to the youth and someone asked about promises in blessings that didn’t come true. Instead of trotting out the old “it depends on faithfulness” line he said, “Well maybe the Patriarch was having a bad day when he gave the blessing” I thought it was fantastic that he could have the humility to allow for that possibility.
3. Yes, and I heard a rumor that M isn’t even mentioned in the CHI anymore, don’t know if it is true though.
:clap: church0333 wrote:I know of many guys that didn’t go on missions because of this and members who beneath themselves up for the same reasons. My mission president told us in public to repent but in private he told us to not concentrate on that but work hard in the end never asked about it in interview and had no problem giving a TR to his missionaries going home that still had issues with only that. Maybe he was a man a head of his time.
Thanks for sharing the positive experience. Even if it’s not my own, it makes me smile for others.
turinturambar wrote:Forgotten_Charity wrote:I didn’t struggle with it but being hounded to death about it for doing it at all left me feeling extremely guilty to the point I was praying for forgiveness everyday many times for a hour a night and to come back in tears to the bishops even after not doing again after 3 or 4 months and being told I wasn’t forgiven by the church yet to take sacrament was extremely painful. I grew up think well then I need to pray at least 2 or 3 hours everynight to be forgiven for this for at least 4-6 months. That’s the impression I got from the 6 month interviews from different bishops. Because it took extreme sorrow and a long length of time to be forgiven for it I felt like I had just murdered someone.
I really does feel like you’ve just murdered someone. The punishment really doesn’t fit the “crime”, does it?
In hindsight it doesn’t. But in truth at the time I felt it did by the words of those around me about it. In hindsight it seems like some taboo that spreads rapidly because of the taboo to even mention anything related to sex. How can we gain responsible but healthy attitudes if people shy away from teaching or speaking of it at all. When I was young I honestly didn’t know it was normal, I thought I was possessed by the words spoken to me. With no one to contradict the opinions expressed to me it wasn’t until many years later I found out that I wasn’t alone. It took a school counselor(who asked why my grades were slipping) to teach me it wasn’t that abnormal or bad. Why is that?
It’s probably a throwback to the time when universally, such behavior was considered abnormal. The world moved on but the Church held onto those prohibitions and still does to a certain extent. An interesting mental exercise would be to compare a man whose sole sexual activity has been masturbation and a man who has had sexual relations with several women over the course of his life (but no M). Which man seems worse? While many people would agree that the first man is less “sinful” than the second, they would see him as more “perverse.” Perhaps, its the furtive, solo nature of the act which make him seem that way. Perhaps the lesson to be taught is “moderation in all things” even when it comes to M. Though I doubt the Church will ever come out with an official statement to that effect.
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