Church Focus

[Anonymous]

1topen wrote:

I don’t understand why PhaseII’s comments have not resonated with more people.

I for one felt a connection to the original comment. Sorry I haven’t been able to say much on it. Maybe its a case for me personally that I’ve been around this topic several times and I don’t know what to say about it at the moment. Sorry about that, but I do hear you!

[Anonymous]

I understand. I have not been to Church actively since about June of this year. I started being less angry and depressed recently but I also have not been going to Church. DH would like us to return to full activity once we move into our new house this week and I honestly don’t mind returning and meeting new people and giving Church another shot. I fear that when I go back that the lessons might be too much for me. I could very possibly do something drastic like put up with it for a few months and never want to go back actively. I know Im jumping to conclusions but the probability is super high. The way the history is presented, F&T meeting, JS emphasis..plenty of material has previously gotten me angry and sad. Once I go back though I know when my mind will have had enough – and that if I can handle twice a month, once a month .. or once every three months or maybe even every week .. I will know I’m respecting my conscience and spritiual/mental health, they are more important than what everyone else “Thinks” I should do or be able to handle. I just know that in the near future much History will be presented to me in Church at a somewhat constant basis-and I’m not sure how lng or if I will be able to “Deal” with it. I definately feel you on this issue.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

PhaseIII I think that Ray is just trying to have you look carefully at the issue, he does try awfully hard to be fair and open with everyone. So the core of that discussion isn’t that you would leave the church because it talks too much about history but that you would leave the church because of its problematic history that causes you to lose faith. Is that more or less correct?

Yes, that is correct. You all seem much more educated on scriptures than I, but what had come to my mind when thinking of Ray’s comments on being more clear with what the issues are for discussion (thank you for clarifying that for me!), I thought about the apostles in the time of Christ and their shortcomings. I always got the feeling, and I wish I was better able to quote specific scripture 😳 that their shortcomings where not glossed over? I feel very uncomfortable that it is never mentioned that some of the LDS prophets had sketchy pasts. I think that is why I feel that I am being deceived?

Quote:

Even if you decide to leave you will need a place at least for a time where you can talk about issues and ideas with people who understand because they are in the midst of the struggle themselves and willing to share it.

That is really what I was hoping for! It is hard to talk about these things when feelings are so raw and I feel so vulnerable. I guess I haven’t shared that my husband is threatening to divorce me if I am not a temple going member. He feels completely justified in this decision.

I really want to thank you Peaceandjoy, 1topen and Orson for sharing your feelings and support!!! I really feel for what you guys are going through too. It is so confusing when Christ said “My burden is easy and my yoke is light.” And yes I do realize that it has not been “easy” for Christians though out history But I wonder what I should make of the fact that when I learned of Christ, it was so easy to accept and it did feel light?

[Anonymous]

Okay, clearly I do not know how to use the “quote” option on this site! Also can someone tell me where to find out what all of the initials mean? I can pretty much guess on a lot of them, but would love to know for sure.

[Anonymous]

I fixed the quotes for you. All you have to do is copy and paste the part you want to quote, highlight it (by clicking at the beginning, holding down the mouse button and dragging it to the end of the quote), then click on the “Quote” button above the text.

When you get done (before you submit it as a published comment), it will look like the following – with brackets instead of parentheses (since I changed them in order to keep it from showing up as a quote and destroying my visual lesson):

(quote)I fixed the quotes for you. All you have to do is copy and paste the part you want to quote, highlight it (by clicking at the beginning, holding down the mouse button and dragging it to the end of the quote), then click on the “Quote” button above the text. (/quote)

After you publish it, it will look like this:

Quote:

I fixed the quotes for you. All you have to do is copy and paste the part you want to quote, highlight it (by clicking at the beginning, holding down the mouse button and dragging it to the end of the quote), then click on the “Quote” button above the text.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Ray!

[Anonymous]

phaseIII wrote:

I thought about the apostles in the time of Christ and their shortcomings. I always got the feeling, and I wish I was better able to quote specific scripture 😳 that their shortcomings where not glossed over? I feel very uncomfortable that it is never mentioned that some of the LDS prophets had sketchy pasts. I think that is why I feel that I am being deceived?

My experience with this issue is fresh for me, as I just had a discussion with a TBM (True Blue Mormon) about imperfections in church leaders. I think we should make it clear that none of us expect perfection in any human being, Joseph Smith included. It is clear that the apostles had flaws as well (quick examples: Peter denied Jesus three times, Paul admitted that he did things that he did not want to do, and did not do things that he wanted to do). The difference is that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young made their “errors” doctrine. JS was caught in adultery with Fanny Alger – but it’s not the fact that he was a sinner that bothers me, it’s the fact that he didn’t turn from his sin, renounce it and repent. Instead he claimed revelation from God to take additional wives. (People have different opinions about this, but it’s clear what it looks like and why people would be upset by it).

This type of attitude would be like if Peter was caught denying Jesus, then claimed revelation from God that Jesus wasn’t the Christ, so he was right to deny him. OR if Paul sinned (I don’t think he was ever specific about what sins plagued him) and declared his sinful action to be a commandment from God. See the difference? There’s imperfection and then there’s trying to justify your sins.

The worst part is when a TBM will defend JS or BY with the “nobody’s perfect” argument, then turn around and accuse a doubting mormon (or ex-mormon) of having sin in their life to lead to personal apostacy. It’s backwards thinking, and simply not fair.

That said, an organization is not going to be completely forthright with information that undermines its cause. We certainly cannot expect the missionaries to say “In this lesson we’ll be talking about Joseph Smith, our founder. By the way, just so you know, he had an extra-marital affair with a minor.” It doesn’t make sense, and we don’t expect it. But at the same time, when someone asks about it the church should be open and honest – don’t give a contrary view of JS as this saintly figure who did no wrong – and most of all do not blame a person’s doubts upon their supposed “unworthiness”. There are clearly legitimate reasons to doubt without there being agregious sin in a person’s life. Put down the finger of blame and examine your own church’s faults. Or, as Jesus said, before you can take out the speck in your brother’s eye, remove the plank from your own.

Also, Phase III, I’m sorry to hear about the situation with your husband. I can relate to a smaller degree, as I have had family members threaten to disown me when I came forward with my doubts. The good news is that they have since come to understand my views after a rough patch of not seeing eye-to-eye. It takes a lot of patience and humility. I hope things improve for you two!

[Anonymous]

Okay Mapleleaf you write my feelings better than I do! That is exactly it! I was thinking of Peter and how when he denied Christ, it did not make everything he taught in the past bad or wrong. But that is exactly it, he did not claim it was revelation from God! Would it be possible for the missionaries to say “JS brought forth some great things, but he also was not someone without sin. Just as other apostles/prophets in the Bible has sinned so has JS. Lets use the things that were in truth” I guess that would not work if JS claimed the sins were from God? Which brings up another thing that scares me…. So Christ says that we should stay close to His word and His people so that we might have strength. So that when hard times come we will be able to endure and stay faithful. With the LDS history of prophets who have sinned in the name of revelation, how am I to feel that they would not lead me astray? How many other men have followed these “revelations?” This is what makes me feel I have some responsibility if I feel this church has not be divinely led to not follow it? One might say… “oh, you can trust your own revelation and the church never asks us to blindly follow.” However that did not work for these many men who followed JS and BY. It also does not seem as though the church allows me to have my own revelation when everything in my being is telling me JS cannot be trusted. I also do not think Christ would have found it necessary to give the warnings He did if they were not necessary. In Revelations it is clear things are going to get pretty bad. I feel that I need to be getting as strong as I can as a follower of Christ to prepare for this.

Ray I keep thinking of your words about ‘someone who has already made a decision.’ I can see why you would say that. I think part of me already has. However this is my process. I am working through this here. With you guys. I have not made a final decision and I really do not want to make one too quickly. I cannot tell you how freeing it feels to be able to talk about this stuff openly. I know we are all at different stages so we are not always going to feel the same way, but thanks for the respect to be able share these feelings.

[Anonymous]

Wow, well said mapleleaf and Fhase III. That is exactly what I am feeling. I’m really good at guilt, so I am feeling guilty to be saying this on a website called stayLDS, but these are my feelings and I need help sifting through them. So, hopefully that is ok. I too am sorry Phase III that you don’t have the support you need from you husband. I was just reading this article in the Salt Lake Tribune by Robert Kirby today. He told of a friend of his whose wife left him because he no longer attends church. He said in the last paragraph It takes real effort to believe in a gospel of love and forgiveness, while simultaneously finding a way to not practice it on the one person in your life who deserves it the most. I don’t know your husband though. I’m sure he is having his struggles with all this too.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

With the LDS history of prophets who have sinned in the name of revelation

Frankly, this might be the true heart of your issue – this perspective. I’m not going to say it’s right or wrong, correct or incorrect. All I can say is that it’s a perspective – not ultimate Truth.

Honestly, I’m sure I am aware of everything that you possibly could mean with that phrase, but I just don’t know if “sinned in the name of revelation” is a conclusion I personally can reach. “Sin” carries a definition of doing what you know is wrong – and it’s VERY different than “making mistakes” / “transgressing”. Personally, I’m not sure whether or not polygamy was a mistake (and I’m convinced it wasn’t about sex for Joseph) – and, given the totality of what I’ve read, I have a hard time calling it “sin”. I don’t believe the denial of the Priesthood to black men was God’s will in and of itself (that it was not the result of revelation), but I absolutely can’t term it “sin”.

I’m positive there are things I believe right now that are not correct, but I don’t think I am “sinning” if I act on what I believe. Again, I’m not saying that you are wrong in that wording; I’m just saying I personally can’t reach that exact conclusion – and, please understand again, I am the resident parser, which influences how I am responding to that phrasing.

[Anonymous]

Dear Friends,

I have always enjoyed reading James E. Talmage’s Book, Jesus the Christ. One particularly poignant chapter was on the betrayal of Christ:

Christ was seated at sup with the 12 whom he had chosen. “One of you will betray me”, “I know whom I have chosen, and one of you is a devil”. And who is that? All of the eleven apostles inquired, “Master, is it I”. That moment of intense introspection comes to all of us. Will I betray Christ? Let me make one thing perfectly clear, the Lord knows exactly whom He has chosen.

Christ replied, “it is he who dippeth his hand in the dish with me”. Judas Iscariot sat very close to Christ. At the exact same moment that Christ dipped his bread in the dish, Juda’s evil hand was immersed in the dish. They fed from the same bowl.

The actions of Judas Iscariot led directly and immediately to the capture of Christ and ultimately to His crucifixion. But, was the Church of Christ destroyed? No. Like the Phoenix who rises from the ashes each time he dies, Christ rose from death – the Church of Christ was strengthened and solidified. Christ was immortalized.

The actions of men cannot destroy the true Church of Christ.

Just as in the original Church of Jesus Christ, organized at the time that Christ lived upon the earth, I see that evil men (devils) played a significant role in the founding of the Latterday Saint Church. I see folly, I see corruption, I see secret combination’s, greed, blood oaths and lusts of the flesh – but, they are dust under the feet of an Almighty God. Be it bullets or blood, fire or flood, God rises to immortality from the ash.

JS made several serious errors, mostly latter in life. Who am I to judge him. Some say that JS was an epileptic. I am an epileptic. The only thing that has kept my brain from becoming wildly insane is that I have had access to modern medications. Can I judge Smith? No.

This mistakes I see are these:

JS should have never allowed Masonry into the Church: Masons are NOT evil, but they are of men. Masons burned a printing press because someone threatened to reveal Masonic secrets using the press. This was part of their “blood oath”, they were bound by oath to burn the printing press. JS ordered a printing press destroyed – do you see the similarities?

Masons believed that the Temple was a replication of King Solomon’s Temple. Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubine (see post on Masonry). JS thought that he had to restore Masonic covenants to completely restore the Church. Personally, I think that the mission of Christ’s Church should be to cleanse the Temple, not to restore it to ancient corruption. |(Christ performed to clearings or cleansings of the Temple).

Lastly, I believe that it was a grave error for JS to perform marriages in secret. Secret marriages left JS wide open to charges of adultery. No one seemed to know exactly who was married to whom. Secret covenants are performed in Masonic Temples. Christ never participated in any secret marriages. Christ was present at marriages that were performed in the open air, for all to see. Because marriage is a covenant and an oath, it should be performed in an open forum for all to see. Marriage does not belong hidden behind secret walls. JS could have married Fanny Alger in secret (with only Brigham Young as a witness). ( Brigham Young was big into Masonry). These secret temple weddings later gave rise to charges of adultery against JS. Had JS married in the open, for all to see, that would not have happened.

Today, more than ever, we need to cleanse our temples. We need to cleanse our inner, personal temples – purify them, sanctify them. We must also cleanse our physical Temples of “secret oaths and covenants”. Remember that Judas made a secret oath and it led to the capture and crucifixion of Christ. The Nephites were destroyed by secret oaths and covenants”. We must learn to perform marriages are Christ performed them, in the open!!!!

[Anonymous]

MWallace,

I don’t claim to be an expert on Masonry, but I’m finding some of your connections overblown. From what I can tell, Joseph’s forays into Masonry were in the 1840’s, while polygamy was much sooner. I think the connections between Joseph destroying the press, and Missourians destroying the church press for anti-slavery sentiments is much closer than any Masonic connections. Finally, I don’t know if you’re familiar with “the Messianic secret”, but there are many times in the scriptures where Christ tells followers not to reveal that he is the Messiah, especially in the Gospel of Mark. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Secret

I am sympathetic to your view that secrecy is often a bad thing, but I think you’re a bit overboard on some of these similarities.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the prospective mormonheritic,

It is always good to hear from the level-headed and well grounded. Let me just say that I am NO expert on Masonry. Neither am I a historian. I have simply tried to correlate some of the events that led to the arrest of JS and others associated with him. Of course, there were many events and lots of conflicting accounts, but historically some of the facts have been proven true. These do not belong on this board. If you do choose to conduct more personal research, you might better understand why I think there is danger in so much secrecy. We have “Freedom of the Press” for a reason. I also believe that there is a good reason why the B of M warns of “secret combinations”.

[Anonymous]

“Helaman 6:22”: 22 And it came to pass that they did have their signs, yea, their secret signs, and their secret words; and this that they might distinguish a brother who had entered into the covenant, that whatsoever wickedness his brother should do he should not be injured by his brother, nor by those who did belong to his band, who had taken this covenant.

“Helaman 6:23”: 23 And thus they might murder, and plunder, and steal, and commit whoredoms and all manner of wickedness, contrary to the laws of their country and also the laws of their God.

“Helaman 6:24”: 24 And whosoever of those who belonged to their band should reveal unto the world of their wickedness and their abominations, should be tried, not according to the laws of their country, but according to the laws of their wickedness, which had been given by Gadianton and Kishkumen.

“Helaman 6:25”: 25 Now behold, it is these secret oaths and covenants which Alma commanded his son should not go forth unto the world, lest they should be a means of bringing down the people unto destruction.

“Helaman 6:26”: 26 Now behold, those secret oaths and covenants did not come forth unto Gadianton from the records which were delivered unto Helaman; but behold, they were put into the heart of Gadianton by that same being who did entice our first parents to partake of the forbidden fruit —

[Anonymous]

Re Church Focus

If you can hang it there; next years should be better. RS/PH will be studying Gospel Principles. The old manual was very good and had real meat not just milk, but they have updated the book. I am almost afraid to look for changes.

Konvert Kid

[Author]

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