Church history and ‘Brochure’ Church History

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

As someone (valoel, perhaps) said in a different thread long ago, I’ve built up the respect capital over the years – and I don’t abuse it.

Me too, though as Gospel Doctrine teacher in my ward I certainly have lots of opportunities to kindof go wild. And next month my wife & I are speaking in Sacrament meeting on the commandments. Hoo–wee! I seriously look forward to speaking!

Old-Timer wrote:

(I see that in Elder Wirthlin, frankly – which is one of the reasons why I loved him so much. I also see that do an extent in Elders Cook and Christensen. I hope one of them becomes my new Elder Wirthlin.)

Bet on Elder Todd Christensen. I’ve met him a couple of times and he really excites me! He really ‘gets it’, IMO. Don’t know as much about Elder Cook.

HiJolly

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

…I’ve built up the respect capital over the years – and I don’t abuse it. (I see that in Elder Wirthlin, frankly – which is one of the reasons why I loved him so much. I also see that do an extent in Elders Cook and Christensen. I hope one of them becomes my new Elder Wirthlin.)

Could you expound upon this comment, please?

[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

just me wrote:

Acutally, my questions (doubts if you must) have brought me closer to Christ than I have ever been in my life. But, that might be seen as a threat to the institutional church (middle man).

So wise and so true. And so heretical. 😈 The super-trifecta! Should we have a thread on that talk?

[Anonymous]

swimordie wrote:

just me wrote:

Acutally, my questions (doubts if you must) have brought me closer to Christ than I have ever been in my life. But, that might be seen as a threat to the institutional church (middle man).

So wise and so true. And so heretical. 😈 The super-trifecta! Should we have a thread on that talk?

LOL, we probably should because we could probably come up with a lot of positive from it. Just have to give it a heretical spin.

[Anonymous]

Morzen wrote:

I am realizing more than ever that it is a very exclusive organization that only appears to work for a certain type of people that are for some reason accepted while others are not (instead, they are marginalized, ignored, etc). I don’t know why that is so, all I know is that my wife and I have felt that way and became tired of “pissing in the wind.” So we left.

I appreciate your clarification, that really helps me better understand where you’re coming from…sorry I misunderstood before. I think people are drawn to this forum (IMO) because they are frustrated and have angst and don’t know what to do, and this provides a place they can safely share them and seek for ways of dealing with it.

I am glad you have found something that works for you. Leaving is certainly one option that can reduce the angst, but the importance of this forum and group that I’ve found is to show everyone that while venting is needed to get your true feelings out, the true value is then being asked by one of the moderators or another member of the group: “Why do you feel that way?” “What do you want to do about it?” “What do you want to know about from others that helps you see things clearer?”

There sometimes aren’t safe ways to answer those questions in church, so this group can provide that opportunity without being attacked or judged for it, but supported in individual journeys.

I would say my experience at church is pretty different from yours, but I share with you a feeling of debating whether I continue to stay LDS or choose to not…but for very different reasons than what I think I hear you are sharing. And that benefits me to have a shared feeling with someone like yourself, even for different reasons, and think about why that is, and what I can learn from your experiences.

I would be more interested in hearing your experiences of what made you feel so full of angst in the past, and as you’ve stopped going to church now, what have you read or done that has increased your feelings of peace and closeness to God now? Less important to me whether someone keeps going to church or stops going to church is how they are filling that void in their lives or those hostile feelings, and finding something better. And as they share their experiences, it helps me reflect on my experience and what I would like to do to become happier.

And so I pose this question to you, because I sincerely care to learn from what you have gone through, now that you don’t go to church, what do you do that helps you find meaning and peace, whether through God or something else? Thanks, Brother.

[Anonymous]

Katzpur wrote:

Old-Timer wrote:

…I’ve built up the respect capital over the years – and I don’t abuse it. (I see that in Elder Wirthlin, frankly – which is one of the reasons why I loved him so much. I also see that do an extent in Elders Cook and Christensen. I hope one of them becomes my new Elder Wirthlin.)

Could you expound upon this comment, please?

I note that Ray has not responded, but I am curious. Do you mean more on “respect capital”, or on Elder Wirthlin?

HiJolly

[Anonymous]

HiJolly wrote:

Katzpur wrote:

Old-Timer wrote:

…I’ve built up the respect capital over the years – and I don’t abuse it. (I see that in Elder Wirthlin, frankly – which is one of the reasons why I loved him so much. I also see that do an extent in Elders Cook and Christensen. I hope one of them becomes my new Elder Wirthlin.)

Could you expound upon this comment, please?

I note that Ray has not responded, but I am curious. Do you mean more on “respect capital”, or on Elder Wirthlin?

Elder Wirthlin. And Elders Cook and Christensen, too, actually. There are so few of the Apostles that I can really identify with to the extent that I just have to hear what they say in Conference. Most of their talks seem relatively generic. I can pretty much always count on Elders Ballard, Holland and Oaks to say something that impresses me. I was just wondering what it was about Elder Wirthlin (and Cook and Christensen) that is so noteworthy.

Of course, Dieter Uchtdorf doesn’t have to actually say anything at all for him to capture my full attention. All he has to do is stand there and look like a movie star. 😳

[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

Just got to the question addressed to me and am out of time this morning. Have to start my actual job.

I will try to answer tonight.

[Anonymous]

There are many things that bothers me when reading about our unvarnished history. The issues about plural marriage, for one, are really disturbing. The Prophet taking wives who were already married to someone else, the attempts by the Prophet to marry adolescent girls, the constant denial about plural marriage before the public, and Emma’s denials throughout her life when in fact she totally knew… the list goes on and on.

I studied in-depth historical time bombs like Brigham Young’s “fantasy” of seeing his offspring holding the keys of the kingdom as against the established pattern, of the problematic history of the Patriarch to the Church office, the evolving theories of each prophet about the Negro curse, the neglected fact that Joseph and Oliver were actually related making them co-conspirators, the crowning of Joseph as king, the troublesome First Vision accounts, and even the similarities between the three-tiered Swedenborgian heaven and our very own three degrees of glory (Emmanuel Swedenborg used the term “celestial kingdom” too, horrors!).

But the strange thing is that I still remain stubbornly attached to this Church–not because it is convenient or comfortable, but because I still know–I still know. And. hey, before you start thinking that I’m some super-active, recommend-holding member with a superb ward or stake calling, well, sorry–I am not that active at all.

Did all these torrents of doubt rattle my soul? Oh yes, they did. And I never had anybody for support–my family had their own issues with doctrine and practices and I could never turn to them. I had a relative who became my pillar of strength when he converted and eventually became an LDS stake president–I swear his testimony transformed the whole stake!–but now he enjoys reading Tarot cards and even turned down a GA’s plea for him to even just pray.

But the thing is, there are some things, despite all this, that you cannot simply deny. It is strange, call me stupid, but the more I see the gaping wounds and all of our past and our troublesome doctrines… If there’s one thing that I have learned, it’s that we don’t really see the whole picture. Our vision is simply limited. And it has to be—for a reason that we still have to find out. Why? We don’t know. The Atonement is something beyond human comprehension–and yet why do many of us believe in a personal Savior even if we can’t even fathom the whole thing? Imagine, someone sweating hemoglobin and yet still alive hours after?

Look at the story of Abraham that we never, never, NEVER question–the Great Jehovah who endlessly utters “thou shalt not kill”, what did he order this guy who was promised an endless posterity through only one miracle son? He told him to murder his son! We just say “sacrifice” to make the scenario more elegant but it is essentially killing! Now, change the names to Joseph, Jr. and Joseph III and the time frame to that problematic 1820s-1840s minefield, tell me, would you still remain 100% believing? And how do you think another Fawn Brodie or D. Michael Quinn would interpret it–oh yes, they’d call this bizarre ritual murder one of the shocking details of Mormondom’s secret history. And yet put that back to the Old Testament and… do I see you reading the account reverently with matching burning in the bosom?

There are some things that down to our dying day will go on unanswered–and yet that’s the beauty of it. And we need it–how else can we truly believe unless we go through the worst? One day, I hope, we will finally see the whole picture.

[Anonymous]

Wonderful post Handel. I agree that we have yet to see or understand everything. We should always remain humble about what we “know.” As humans the glass is dark, our perception/comprehension is limited. I do sometimes think that things are the way they are exactly because that’s the way they need to be for us to learn the things we should learn (including the ex-Stake Pres with the tarot cards). I sometimes wonder if we’ll pass to the other side and get a “thank you for playing your parts so well – I hope you learned something valuable. On to the next script please!” 😯 (Okay, not really but I think the idea is thought provoking.)

But yes I do also deeply feel that those who did not love as completely as they could have will want to change their history.

[Anonymous]

Just a post mortem on this topic; I just finished reading Jan Shipps’ “Sojourner in the Promised Land”. In addition to being a very good read, one of the essays in particular enlightened me about the differences between academic history and denominational history and their differences in purposes. The denominational history is analagous to the brochure history term that I used, exists in every ‘church’, and has the purpose of telling the story of the mythology vs. relating factual, complete history.

I guess I’ve been a bit naive thinking this wouldn’t exist in the true church, but I’m trying to come to grips with it.

[Anonymous]

I don’t know if this adds effectively to the post but recently I have been thinking about the Quote ‘

Quote:

Only after the trial of your faith does the miracle come”

I always interpreted that to mean that we will have trials in our life that might be a struggle and we might even struggle to understand Gods intentions, but after that trial we will be able to look back and see that it was all for a purpose.

However,

I have recently seen a whole new meaning to this statement. I now think of it in more literal terms. I am having a literal trial of my actual faith in Mormonism as a whole! Maybe everyone needs to go through this before some miraculous miracle of enlightenment comes. (I’m still waiting for this but then my faith is still being tried)

Only after the trial of your faith does the miracle come. Just a thought, don’t know if it makes sense to anyone or Im just saying what others see as obvious.

[Author]

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