Church leaders’ view of why members leave versus reality.

[Anonymous]

SamBee wrote:

For the record, dullness is a major turn off for me. It’s why I rarely do conferences especially the stake variety. I have a condition that makes it uncomfortable for me to sit around for more than an hour and I have to stretch my legs. The dullness is what can drive me to my phone or tablet or to reading something else.

I agree. As I got in touch with my boredom, there are certain things I find excruciating now. Our music director has been in the position for over a decade. Probably because she refuses to do anything other than music.

She has this shrill, uncontrollable vibrato that rings through the entire chapel with every hymn. As my musical acuity has sharped over the years due to about 150 performances in the last 6 years, I find this intolerable. And then, the lessons that are really boring, and talks and testimony that are so repetitive.

There are times I have to just get up and leave.

Anyway, back to the point, I don’t think boredom has been studied much in the church. But if you raise that with the leadership, you will not get anywhere. They will put the onus right back on you to enjoy it because “church is a glorious experience” or some other Pollyanna comment.

[Anonymous]

Looking at this from my own point of view, some of bubbles affected me more than others, and many not at all. There was no one of those that led to me be inactive.

Of the big bubbles (disagree with policies, church history, porn, church lost way/deficient) only the church losing its way played a role – and it was relatively minor and something I thought after other things. None of the other far left things had any impact (in fairness OW did not exist and I had not heard of John Dehlin – or Denver Snuffer or Robert Norman – then). None of the middle bubbles affected me either. On the far right, I wouldn’t really say false prophets, but the idea that prophets since Joseph Smith have not had any revelation did play a part. A desire for something more – more fulfillment and spirituality – did play a smallish part, and still does. Nothing from last days/end of the world.

My main reason is not on the list unless they talked about some in more detail (which I believe they did) and I am not interpreting a bubble the way they did. My thing was teachings that in my experience turned out not to be “true.” I’m not sure which bubble that fits in.

Noticeably absent from the bubbles is the perennial favorite “offended.” Truth is I think offense does play a part in many leaving the church. I suppose quite a few of the bubbles (especially those in the middle) could be classified as sinful. I’m not sure which ones encompass lazy.

I think Dehlin and Snuffer have far less influence here in the “mission field” than where they live. I think almost no one here even knows who they are and I didn’t know who they were until well after “leaving” the church. I still don’t really know who Norman is or what the issue is with him, even after Googling him, but he must fall into the same category as Dehlin and Snuffer out here.

Lastly, i agree with what others have said here – if we want to know why people leave, ask them, listen to them, and let them give honest answers.

[Anonymous]

I am really looking forward to hear the results of some of the professional survey results that will come from Jana Riess’ next book. It is focusing on the younger generation, but the fact that she is spending quite a bit of money on a leading professional research team it will have some interesting and even stronger data than other self-selecting surveys (as good as they are).

[Anonymous]

mom3 wrote:

Our Stake President stated how he grew up in the South and everyone kept the Sabbath when he was a kid. Now they don’t.

Very very good point mom3…you’re hitting it out of the park lately…all your posts…just nodding in agreement with you as you write.

Yes…things change…and the older generation is adverse to change and looks back on the “golden years” from their perspective. The church has been conservative more than progressive (except the part where we started a new movement in the 1800s). There is some wisdom to older generations giving perspective and experience.

But if things change, it doesn’t always have to equate to “because now people are less valiant…be careful of losing faith.” Sometimes things change because it is needed. There are so many more options for people today and how they spend their time…they don’t just farm and then go to church as a social event. They have options. It’s just the way it is.

nibbler wrote:

How do you solve the problem of insomnia. Sleep more. Duh.

But I think the quoted portion reveals a potential issue. More committed to what? Attending meetings? Participating in programs? The leaders/authority? The body of Christ?

Exactly! To what? To many times…the ward council is talking about needed youth to be more active, and families to be in church…because that is where they should be. If there are deeper purposes to be committed to…they aren’t expressing it right, it seems to me. I think you nailed it nibbler. They are stating the obvious, and they are pounding the drum for the sake of doing something. The compelling reason “why” is lost on many, and for that reason, people are finding other things to spend their time on, and leaving the church.

I still think the leaders have their view, which they think is correct and from God, so…it is less a negotiation and less about servicing the needs of their market, and more about telling the people what it is they are supposed to be doing with promises they’ll enjoy the product if people will listen to them. Just seems some people have listened, and are not sure they can trust there are really going to see the promised benefits.

mom3 wrote:

My serious theme would be “Go Out and Do Good.”

Yes…this should be the focus. DO things. Even cancel some meetings to go do things. Make the time at church meaningful with things we do, not navel gazing at the truth of the church message.

[Anonymous]

Laziness likely falls under the “Lack of commitment” umbrella.

Apparently Robert Norman is a former CES instructor that started to feel that 3 Nephi 16:10 applied to the CoJCoLDS and resigned. For reference, the verse is:

3 Nephi 16:10 wrote:

And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

Of course the slides are completely devoid of context and discussion but I’d love to know what’s their take was on needing “something more.” Again, I issue the disclaimer that I parse words differently than the person/people that put the slides together but to me there’s a difference between wants and needs; regardless, if the gospel/church isn’t providing something that someone wants or needs then I think we’re back at some of SD’s points, namely the blame is placed on members, in this case for needing something more than what is provided.

I’ll take a step back and assume that this doesn’t mean people whose spiritual/emotional needs aren’t being met. I’m starting to think that circle is about people looking for additional revelation… when they aren’t obedient to the revelations they’ve already received. Those sinners. 😈

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I still think the leaders have their view, which they think is correct and from God, so…it is less a negotiation and less about servicing the needs of their market, and more about telling the people what it is they are supposed to be doing

Where this grates me is that nothing has changed over the history of Christianity. Just whip open Ezekiel 16 and read the list God left with Isreal and see if we can apply it. Or if that is too confusing The Sermon on the Mount. Some Jewish Rabbi gave it, but there is a stinking long list of “Love your enemies. Do good to them that despite-fully use and persecute you.” It doesn’t say “Regurgitate all the injustice’s that have come to you. Create program’s where you can walk haughtily among the gentiles.”

I remember being told often that God would send more revelation when we had fulfilled the revelation he had already sent. Well maybe we still don’t have the basic 2000 year old stuff down, so no more. Not now.

Back to the Sabbath Day thing

When I was a kid Mormon church Sabbath’s were totally different. Church was twice a day. In between morning and evening meetings people got out of their Sunday clothes and had a quiet day. Since I didn’t live in Bosom of Zion, all the kids in our ward took turns going to each other’s houses after morning services. Many families stopped by the donut shop or fruit stand and bought a fun snack. We kids played outside. Then we got redressed in our Sunday duds and headed back for Sacrament Meeting. Everyone I knew watched Wild Kingdom or Wonderful World of Disney on TV on Sunday night. No one batted an eye. God didn’t strike us down. There wasn’t some mass falling away.

Sabbath Day observance wasn’t even a big push. Family Home Evening, Food Storage, Adopting Lamanite Children, anti-ERA, these were the biggies. If your butt was in the pew that was good enough. – Rant over.

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

In fact, I think a lot of these points could be summarized as a single point, namely that the Church currently doesn’t compete with the alternatives all that well for the average person because in so many different cases once people seriously consider or actually try out the alternatives instead of dismissing them, being afraid of them, etc. then going back is not very likely in practice.

+1

I think this.

I also agree with SamBee…

Quote:

The dullness is what can drive me to my phone or tablet or to reading something else.

And I just hear people talk about it like it should not be dull to you, you make it what you will. But…I can keep trying to tell myself it shouldn’t be dull…until eventually it is just a reality…just accept it is what it is…and try to avoid the “shoulds”…accept reality.

[Anonymous]

Reuben wrote:

Exactly which part? I’ve been trying to figure out why the leak was forced to be taken down, and this might shed some light on it.

I just saw the slide with the circles that Nibbler described. I’ll admit…I wasn’t paying attention to it all to know if the other slides were created by the visiting GA, or he took them from the presentation that was supposedly leaked.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

I wish people still remembered John Dehlin’s study about why Mormons leave. I think he had a really big sample size, and it highlighted faith issues as the major reason people leave — not reasons that make the person leaving out to be an apostate sinner.

SD, good comments. I think Dehlin’s stuff was interesting for a while to see that stuff. However, it does seem to me the leaders are going a step further. People may be leaving because of loss of faith int he book of mormon…but the leaders are saying “why did they lose faith?” …then they are suggesting it is because of things in those circles that lead a person’s loss of faith…as apart from the thing that faith was lost in of itself. In other words…if you are keeping the sabbath day holy and worthy to have the spirit of discernment, you can understand the problems with the BOA exist and find acceptable (apologetic-type) answers. That’s how I see them presenting stuff, and how it relates to Dehlin’s stuff you linked.

DarkJedi wrote:

My main reason is not on the list unless they talked about some in more detail (which I believe they did) and I am not interpreting a bubble the way they did. My thing was teachings that in my experience turned out not to be “true.” I’m not sure which bubble that fits in.

I’m there with you DJ. Personal revelation and personal experience lead to loss of faith in the church or the messages from authority figures…but not losing faith in God or the gospel.

I still don’t see them drawing that distinction…and perhaps…that is the major reason I still see a disconnect. This is just my gut feeling…I could be limited in my view…but I feel they still see church and gospel as equivalent and inseparable. So…the person that leaves church activity must therefore have lost faith in all things good in the gospel…which is why they seem to say things like DA’s quote of Elder Cook:

Quote:

While anything that lessens commitment is of consequence, two relevant challenges are both prevalent and significant. The first is unkindness, violence, and domestic abuse. The second is sexual immorality and impure thoughts. These often precede and are at the root of the choice to be less committed.

The focus is on the extreme behaviors and equating those with the idea that if you stay in church and keep the sabbath holy, you don’t have those behaviors. I think they are conflating things because their point of view is not seeing a distinction between the institution and the principles taught.

It is like saying that almost all people who are in jail view pornography. So therefore, viewing porn will lead you to jail.

I just don’t know that they see there are many steps removed in a person leaving the church until those bubbles are really describing what is going on with the person.

[Anonymous]

Lots of thoughts as this discussion continues to unfold.

First, in defense of the Sabbath thing, when they presented this idea in our stake it was that when young people fall away it’s because their families broke the Sabbath. Aside from the obvious blame-the-parents approach that I wasn’t a big fan of, I do think there’s something to this–but only with a boatload of caveats. It has to do with how seriously the family takes church commitments, but it’s good in that there’s no set way to “honor the Sabbath” (let’s also just ignore that Sunday is not actually the Sabbath for simplicity sake). So, perhaps its true that more laxity in the home leads kids to leave the church (because they are less invested than the parents), but I would bet you dollars to donuts that TOO MUCH Sabbath observance has the same result. I suspect this is a U-shaped curve. If you club the kids over the head with church stuff, they leave as soon as they get out from under mom & dad’s house rules because they hate it. If you’re too lax, they leave because they aren’t invested.

As to the reasons listed in the slide about why people leave, here are some thoughts.

Some of these are related to social movements or competing groups, which happens for a few reasons: 1) these groups address a gap people perceive in the church, 2) they rise around a “cult of personality” or an individual who writes a book, creates a group, or otherwise brings together like-minded people, and 3) they become a threat when there are enough people connected together discussing this topic and forming a group consensus. If they disagree, it’s not a threat. I see a HUGE difference between the right and left on this, and I’m sure that’s partly because I “get” what the left is on about, but the ones on the right look like wing-nuts to me. But I’ll unbox each one briefly.

– Ordain Women. The crux here is that women have systematically been disenfranchised in the church since the 1970s. The church is still trying (baby steps) to figure out how to engage women more fully without actually engaging them more fully. Personally, IMO, this one is the church having a real “all male panel” problem. Women are in a tiny little domestic box and any deviation is seen as sinful. The church’s efforts in this arena are pretty poor so far.

– John Dehlin. What John did was create places (like this) for people to talk to others who were experiencing the same doubts. That’s kind of problematic, but the reason it happened is because wards (and the church at large) are too often hostile to doubts and doubters. This problem goes away if the church can find a way to welcome people at all levels of belief. Some of the Q12 are clearly trying to address this. More to come.

– Denver Snuffer. He got a toehold because he talked about personal revelation and seeing the savior, and he spoke with spiritual power. We get mostly business-speak in General Conference. People were hungry for revelation and charismatic leadership. He also pointed out ways in which the church had become less revelatory and spiritual. The church brought this on through becoming political, corporate, Wasatch-front centric, and the nepotism in how leaders are chosen.

– False Prophets. This is just a catch all category for the others like Snuffer and Robert Norman I assume. There will be more. I don’t know who they all are.

– Robert Norman. I literally never heard of this guy before this slide.

– Last days/end of world predictions. Ditto the false prophets bucket – it’s just a catch all for preppers.

Other things are caused by a disconnect between church culture and personal values:

– Disagree with Current Policies. Honestly, I don’t like that this slide is on the left side because that reveals / bolsters that the church’s policies are right-wing. I know they are, but they should at least pretend they are non-partisan. And there are also people on the right who don’t agree with church policies. There are a lot of policies out there. This one’s also interesting because we call something a policy when it doesn’t qualify as a doctrine and it’s seen as temporary usually and man-made vs. revealed. I guess I would say, if you have crappy policies, fix them. Stinkers like Nov. 5 are just simply terrible, and I don’t buy for a second that it was revelation. That was a ridiculous assertion.

– Secular. This is lazy terminology. We are all secular to some extent. We have a lay clergy, for crying out loud! The church is secular. We are run by business men at the ward and higher up levels. I suppose this means individuals who don’t see any value in spiritual, but again, I don’t think there are a lot of people like that. They just might not feel they get spiritual nourishment at church.

– Incredulity over Church History. The white-washing has come home to roost. The church caused this one, unfortunately, and they are now working to fix it, albeit a bit slowly and in some cases not very well.

– Lack of commitment. I suspect this is similar to the “Secular” category, just a catch all. Why don’t people commit? Perhaps they don’t feel their local wards are worth their commitment. Maybe they are busy with other things. Who knows? Are we giving them interesting things to commit to?

– Church has lost its way or is deficient. There are some on the right who feel like we’ve lost the revelatory thing and leadership is dull and uninspiring, but there are also those who feel (and this might be more on the left) that the church is intellectually lazy, manuals have all the sense correlated out of them, lessons are proof-texting, etc. Putting it on the right misses a bunch of people, IMO.

– Need “something more.” Perhaps this is the milk before meat (that never comes) argument. If so, I don’t think it’s on the right only. If it’s the lack of revelation, then again, we’ve got a lot of overlap with several other categories.

– Language and cultural problems “-ites.” I suspect this means the global church thing, and if so, it’s probably a byproduct of some areas where the church grew quickly but through things like baseball baptisms, and now the wards don’t have sufficient leadership to staff positions and people don’t fully understand what they are doing. Not sure.

And a few are personal “weakness” related, or the “fault” of the person who left:

– Chastity. Yes, this is always going to be an issue.

– Pornography. This is, IMO, completely overstated, and not because I don’t think porn can be an issue. It’s just outsize compared to how many people actually leave church because of it.

– Lack of righteousness. Well, what a catch all category that is. Also, there are plenty of people who don’t leave who aren’t righteous or who are self-righteous (which is itself unrighteous), so this category is dumb.

– Sabbath. I already said what I had to say about that, but it’s really an overlap with secular and lack of commitment probably.

I would contrast that with my own thoughts for what we need to do to get people more active or what would impact it:

– Be Charitable To Others. I am really put off by how my new ward trash talks people who’ve left. How about we treat absent people with kindness and respect, even if they rejected something we hold dear? My old ward did not do this, and whenever I hear this, it is a huge turn off and makes me not want to go back. I thought we were supposed to be learning to be Christlike, not nursing our hurt feelings against people who left the church. I really hate this.

– Do More Service. If we were focused on organizing service events for our communities, that’s something EVERYONE could get behind regardless of the doctrines and the history and whatnot. We could bring non-members and feel like it wasn’t an embarrassment. This should be the bread & butter for churches.

– Meaningful Callings. I swear that the old adage is true that people need to feel needed and if someone doesn’t have a meaningful calling, they will fall away every time. But so many people feel underutilized. I know I do.

– Bring Back Fun. We used to have fun in our wards. There were activities, road shows, campouts, etc. It seems like since we cut the activities committee, the only “activity” is cleaning the building. People want a sense of community at church. Bring back the linger longers!

[Anonymous]

mom3 wrote:

Back to the Sabbath Day thing

When I was a kid Mormon church Sabbath’s were totally different. Church was twice a day. In between morning and evening meetings people got out of their Sunday clothes and had a quiet day. Since I didn’t live in Bosom of Zion, all the kids in our ward took turns going to each other’s houses after morning services. Many families stopped by the donut shop or fruit stand and bought a fun snack. We kids played outside. Then we got redressed in our Sunday duds and headed back for Sacrament Meeting. Everyone I knew watched Wild Kingdom or Wonderful World of Disney on TV on Sunday night. No one batted an eye. God didn’t strike us down. There wasn’t some mass falling away.

Sabbath Day observance wasn’t even a big push. Family Home Evening, Food Storage, Adopting Lamanite Children, anti-ERA, these were the biggies. If your butt was in the pew that was good enough. – Rant over.

I think you’re on to something here Mom. I was not a member of the church in those days but was baptized soon enough after that everybody I knew was. There were people who liked the block and those who didn’t (probably for the same reason people don’t like it today – it’s too long). The problem is that the ship was turning then too – and depending on your point of view, in the wrong direction. One of the things that really bugs me about many members of the church is the Pharisaical attitude. Our kids going to play at other kids’ houses on the Sabbath now? Sacrilege! Stopping at the donut shop? Heathens! TV (in most cases even BYUTV)? Impiety! But it seems like the average member needs to have those checklists of what they can and can’t do on the Sabbath. Family history? Check. Home teaching? Check. Family hike? Repent! Is that what God wants? I don’t know, but it is clear that it is the expectation of at least some of the senior leadership.

I think you are right about finding examples of how we’re off base in the scriptures is valid – throughout the OT, NT and BoM. Jesus spent some effort trying to show the Pharisees how they were missing the mark. I mentioned in another thread how I have undertaken a study of Isaiah (this is so I can gain my own understanding of the book, apart from the church’s interpretation and it has been an eye opener). The first part of Isaiah is all about preparing Israel for an invasion (which happens). Isaiah is laying blame on the people, telling them that if they were more righteous the invasion wouldn’t be happening or they would repel the invasion (with God’s help) if they turned to righteousness. This is God speaking through Isaiah (starting in verse 12, NRSV, emphasis added)

Quote:

When you come to appear before me, who asked this from your hand? Trample my courts no more;

13 bringing offerings is futile; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and sabbath and calling of convocation— I cannot endure solemn assemblies with iniquity.

14 Your new moons and your appointed festivals my soul hates; they have become a burden to me, I am weary of bearing them.

15 When you stretch out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood.

16 Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil,

17 learn to do good; seek justice, rescue the oppressed, defend the orphan, plead for the widow.

Alas, who am I to point out to the ensconced leadership that perhaps they need to look outside their tiny little shoebox. They could not possibly be wrong.

[Anonymous]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

I would contrast that with my own thoughts for what we need to do to get people more active or what would impact it:

– Be Charitable To Others. I am really put off by how my new ward trash talks people who’ve left. How about we treat absent people with kindness and respect, even if they rejected something we hold dear? My old ward did not do this, and whenever I hear this, it is a huge turn off and makes me not want to go back. I thought we were supposed to be learning to be Christlike, not nursing our hurt feelings against people who left the church. I really hate this.

– Do More Service. If we were focused on organizing service events for our communities, that’s something EVERYONE could get behind regardless of the doctrines and the history and whatnot. We could bring non-members and feel like it wasn’t an embarrassment. This should be the bread & butter for churches.

– Meaningful Callings. I swear that the old adage is true that people need to feel needed and if someone doesn’t have a meaningful calling, they will fall away every time. But so many people feel underutilized. I know I do.

– Bring Back Fun. We used to have fun in our wards. There were activities, road shows, campouts, etc. It seems like since we cut the activities committee, the only “activity” is cleaning the building. People want a sense of community at church. Bring back the linger longers!

Now…this stuff is meaningful to me…this stuff I can commit to more of. Perhaps that is where my focus should be, regardless of what others at church are focused on.

DarkJedi wrote:

it seems like the average member needs to have those checklists of what they can and can’t do on the Sabbath

I do believe people ask for the list, and the leaders would rather people do it on their own than have to be told…but as a lesser law…they provide the list for those who need it. Problem is…then the list is there and it becomes a standard.

[Anonymous]

Here is another thought/question I was hoping people could give me thoughts on this subject…

Could focus be given to help commitment by eliminating 3rd hour of church?

My guess is the answer is “no”. Because they want more commitment, the answer in the minds of leaders is “more” not less. They can’t get more commitment by making it easier.

But…for many reasons…I think you could get more commitment by changing the 3hr block to 2, and focusing on things like HG listed. Spiritual commitment doesn’t need to be measured in hours of church attendance.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Do More Service. If we were focused on organizing service events for our communities, that’s something EVERYONE could get behind regardless of the doctrines and the history and whatnot. We could bring non-members and feel like it wasn’t an embarrassment. This should be the bread & butter for churches.

This. Yes.

I am on the leadership team for a local overnight homeless shelter. It is based out of a local church and facilitated by 18 other churches. 5 of them being LDS. A few weeks ago the LDS churches invited our team to meet with the Bishops in their Stake and learn what more they can do for us and vice versa.

One of the Bishops said he has 2 or 3 families who are inactive. Except for the week the ward works at the shelter. These families make it a point to get signed up and to help. Whether it’s bring a meal, run the laundry, work the overnight shifts (which are very lonely and boring). But for the six years he has been Bishop he has watched the miracle of service in helping someone keep connected with the church.

I wish Salt Lake would hear those stories and use them as examples.

[Anonymous]

Just something to consider:

It is easy for those who have easy access to church community and/or long-term membership to want to eliminate an hour from church on Sunday. However, for many of those whose only meaningful association with their fellow worshippers is on Sunday and/or who have long-term connections with other members (and no kids to create a mid-week association), eliminating 33% of their church time can be devastating.

It’s important to keep in mind our relative luxury when we talk of eliminating things for everyone.

[Author]

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