Church Potential

[Anonymous]

Quote:

would members of the church be obedient to the prophet, no matter what he asked of them?

Certainly not all, because I’m a member of the church. Some would, some wouldn’t.

My opinion is that the more the church uses its influence for truly helping people and families and humanitarian needs, the more people will be involved in a good thing. If it uses its influence for reasons other than what people need to find peace in this world and just requires obedience, the less potential it will have.

They need tithing money. They need membership. They will be willing to compromise on almost anything to stay relevant in people’s lives.

[Anonymous]

Interesting. One of my brothers is more or less a TBM, but definitely has a healthy dose of skepticism. He once pointed out in Mormon 8, how it talks about Mormon seeing us and our day, and that the church of god has been corrupted, see verses 34 – 41. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/morm/8” class=”bbcode_url”>http://scriptures.lds.org/en/morm/8 Whether you want to interpret ‘church of God’ as ‘LDS church’ is up to you.

I could be misreading it, but it seems pretty clear that even in the church there is, or will be, widespread pride and corruption. I’m not saying at the highest levels, but…who knows? I’m sure I’m not the only one that has seen it at the Stake level, so why not higher? Although I sincerely hope not. If it ever comes to the point where we feel leery about prophetic direction, I think it will be like everything else – the prophet says x; then we ask for personal confirmation. Or more simply, what does your gut tell you? The prophet gives general direction, but I’m the captain of my soul.

[Anonymous]

It can be a dangerous organization that requires obedience above all else.

[Anonymous]

What in the world happened? That is NOT what I posted.

Who changed my post & why?

The only thing I wrote is in quotes – the rest is written by someone else. I didn’t even mention humanitarian, tithing nor the church wanting membership. Strange.

I really wanted to get other perspectives & I appreciate those who responded – thank you. It is important that we listen to our intuition or spirit…the kingdom of God is within, not without.

[Anonymous]

Featherina wrote:

What in the world happened? That is NOT what I posted. Who changed my post & why?

The only thing I wrote is in quotes – the rest is written by someone else. I didn’t even mention humanitarian, tithing nor the church wanting membership. Strange.

I really wanted to get other perspectives & I appreciate those who responded – thank you. It is important that we listen to our intuition or spirit…the kingdom of God is within, not without.

I don’t know what happened to your post, Featherina. That was my response to yours and now it is posted under your name…gremlins in the system or something???? 😡 I don’t know if we can get your OP back now or not…I’ll ask Brian if he knows what happened.

[Anonymous]

No clue, Featherina. I will try to find out, but, if we can’t figure it out, would you mind re-writing it and posting it again? I (or another admin) then can copy and paste the existing comments as comments in the new thread. A bit of a pain, perhaps, but it might be the only option.

[Anonymous]

Maybe gremlins! 😡 That’s how I felt too, initially. Well, that’s good to know that it’s your words, Heber. But it is also concerning in a way – how that happened. Strange. I’m too tired to write it over now, maybe some other time.

Thanks for your replies.

[Anonymous]

I don’t see anything in the phpBB logs to indicate posts were deleted or moved in this thread before the ones that are displayed right now. That is very weird because even moderator and admin actions are logged by the system. *Shrug* Not sure what to say … “Gremlins” is about the best answer I can give too. First time something like this has happened in the past 2+ years running the forums, that I know of.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for letting me know, Brian & Ray. It’s a relief to know it wasn’t anyone on this forum. It has given me a chance to rethink what I wanted to express (maybe I’ll sugarcoat it for the gremlins ).

Despite my belief changes, by my behavior, you’d think I’m TBM & that I follow the prophets. I’m a full-time mom, I study the scriptures regularly, pray, have FHE & family prayers, served in the temple, shared my testimony, visit teach, & put my heart into whatever calling I’ve had. During conference, I take notes in my journal (which I’ve kept since I could write). – Even after belief changes, I write down truths when I hear them. I’m not perfect, but I do my best to live the truths I’ve learned. I don’t follow the advice of the prophet just to be obedient, but I do what I think & feel is right. I also do things that the prophet hasn’t commanded – like yoga/meditation & being open to truths outside church doctrine. Maybe the reason leaders council against non-lds doctrine or questioning is because they view members as easily influenced, not used to thinking for themselves & don’t want to lose membership. Once a GA directly gave our family inappropriate council, which I’m glad we didn’t follow. I didn’t read the Book of Mormon when told to – but I continued reading the New Testament that I was already reading, & I was still spiritually helped. So, is it better to say you believe & go through the motions…or to doubt, but live the truths you know?

Martine wrote:

The prophet gives general direction, but I’m the captain of my soul.

We each have great potential…even more than what we’re taught in church. Don’t get me wrong – I love the LDS church! And any organization needs leaders & mission statements for unity – yet spirituality is personal. I think the lds church is a great foundation for my family to learn values, truths & service but it also has potential of creating robots. I see it as a springboard, not THE final truth. Children need to be taught certain things before they’re ready to go out on their own – but once they’re ready – they need to experience life for themselves. Likewise, the church teaches many important things necessary before learning more, yet there are grown-up kid members who don’t want to leave the security of having all of the answers laid out before them. The idea of adults obediently following anyone without question scares the heck out of me.

Cadence wrote:

It can be a dangerous organization that requires obedience above all else.

Instead of the words, “Follow the prophet…he knows the way!” I’d like to hear, “Follow the truth…you’ll find the way!” Wasn’t it Joseph Smith who said that the truth will carve itself & that ignornance is a major enemy to overcome to be saved?

“walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8;1)

“O Lord, I have trusted in thee, & I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth is trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man” (2 Nephi 4:34)

Not trusting in “the flesh” involves tapping into the child of God within us to discern. We have divine truths from people throughout history – but as imperfect people, we all (even prophets) add our own humanness. So with our own experience, thought & feeling, we need to go within for spiritual guidance, not without, to discern.

(Again to clarify – our friend, Heber posted this (not me) …)

Heber13 wrote:

]My opinion is that the more the church uses its influence for truly helping people and families and humanitarian needs, the more people will be involved in a good thing. If it uses its influence for reasons other than what people need to find peace in this world and just requires obedience, the less potential it will have.

The church is growing powerful, doing much good – & has great potential…& it will be used for more good, if everyone goes ONLY to the Source for truth.

[Anonymous]

Obedience has dark overtones, particularly given 20th Century history. “Only obeying orders” has the wrong connotations.

[Anonymous]

SamBee wrote:

Obedience has dark overtones, particularly given 20th Century history. “Only obeying orders” has the wrong connotations.

That’s a good point. I understand that there are circumstances when following orders is essential – in the military & children obeying their parents’ commands for their own safety. But even military & children have the ability to think & choose for themselves & at times, that is best. LDS Doctrine teaches that this ability to choose was what the war in heaven was about. Satan wanted to force everyone to obey, when God knew it would never work; – it was a lie because you can’t force anyone to learn to love (& God is love) without understanding the possibility of its opposite – hatred or even apathy.

Still, I don’t throw obedience out the window, except for obeying human nature. I think the ONLY obedience we should show is to God…humbly submitting to what we know (intellectually & spiritually/emotionally) to be God’s will. Our “All-Knowing” Creator knows what’s best – but to tap into God, isn’t done for us. We can only realizing God’s will by searching for ourselves. And since God sees the big picture, I believe God’s will is always best for everyone, not contrary to God’s nature.

This brings up another topic – of whether killing would ever be justified, even if “commanded by God” through prophets. (Israelites taking over groups of people & Nephi killing Laban). Personally, I don’t believe killing would ever be justified. – Jesus taught even to turn the other cheek…& to do unto others as you’d have them do unto you (similar to the idea of karma – what comes around goes around). This is a higher obedience – to God & goodness, not because somebody is telling you what to do, but because you realize we are all connected & it’ll eventually come back to you, somehow.

[Anonymous]

Featherina wrote:

This brings up another topic – of whether killing would ever be justified, even if “commanded by God” through prophets. (Israelites taking over groups of people & Nephi killing Laban). Personally, I don’t believe killing would ever be justified. – Jesus taught even to turn the other cheek…& to do unto others as you’d have them do unto you (similar to the idea of karma – what comes around goes around). This is a higher obedience – to God & goodness, not because somebody is telling you what to do, but because you realize we are all connected & it’ll eventually come back to you, somehow.

I guess I’m more of a Captain Moroni type of guy. I will kill if I have to to protect my home (property) and my family, friends, or another community member from being physically harmed – and I wouldn’t apologize for doing so either.

Now I certainly wouldn’t do ANYTHING just because the prophet says so. You will certainly notice i left religion out of my first comment. I think way, way too many folks have killed and been killed all in the name of god – and I don’t subscribe to that at all. I question the validity of the Bible, and I REALLY, REALLY question the parts where it talks about god “commanding” and condoning Israel to massacre entire populations of “gentiles”, men, women and children (and even the cats and dogs). I don’t think so.

[Anonymous]

I have’t been on this board for a bit with spring cleaning and gardening taking most of my time. Maybe I just needed a bit of a break but I’m feeling drawn here again and this type of subject is something I’ve been dealing with lately. I have a hard time with how many things are run. The corporation feel to the church is sometimes interfering with genuine Christianity (IMO). I don’t know if there is a God or not but I don’t like the notion the church preaches that our only choice on earth is to do God’s will or be subjected to Satan. And that only the leader’s of the Church and tell you what to do to keep you on track. i.e. read your scriptures, read the BofM everyday, Pray all the time, pay tithing, pay a generous fast offering, go to the temple frequently, do your HT/VT, attend all your meetings, hold FHE, say you put family first but actually put the church first…I believe in free agency and not just the kind that says I am free to follow the prophet/church or be cast out. I think there is many lists of do’s and don’t’s and that it sounds very much like how the pharisees were which Jesus criticized. I know that trying to better oneself for an external source like the church or God is effective but wouldn’t it be better if it just came from with-in us.

[Anonymous]

This is such a tricky line to walk, since there is a deeply important aspect of community survival that rests solidly on following the chosen leaders of that community – no matter the nature of that community.

My own view is pretty simple, remembering that I am and have been considered by some to be a “church leader”:

1) I generally accept and follow the requests of my church leaders. Iow, I “sustain and support” them in their responsibilities. I think that general allegiance is required within a community.

2) I genreally accept and follow things with which I personally disagree when requested by my church leaders, as long as I feel they are not important to salvation/exaltation, obviously destructive of myself and/or family in a way that I can’t control or a result of egregious unrighteous dominion. Even in those instances, I generally continue to sustain and support those leaders – unless I see a pattern of truly egregious requests that cross the line into serious abuse and unconcern and unrighteous dominion. Whenever possible, I explain why I don’t agree, but I also explain that I will accept and follow anyway. (More than once, that approach has led to a change in the request – since most good, sincere people at least will consider changing something if they are presented with a reasonable alternative in a gentle, kind, loving manner.)

3) I do not accept and follow those things that lie outside of what I just described – but I don’t fight them publicly unless there is no alternative left, and that rarely is the case. Rather, I talk with the person directly, then go up the chain (or laterally within the chain, if I know someone who is more likely to have an effect on the person than I am) if nothing changes – including my perspective of the situation. (Frankly, my perspective has changed more than once after talking with the person – and I think it’s critical to allow for that possibility.)

There is a big difference between addressing an issue and rocking the boat – and too often the boat gets rocked much more violently than it needs to be. (Even though it also doesn’t get rocked at all too often when it needs to be.)

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

There is a big difference between addressing an issue and rocking the boat – and too often the boat gets rocked much more violently than it needs to be. (Even though it also doesn’t get rocked at all too often when it needs to be.)

I like that. That’s a very good way of seeing things.

[Author]

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