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Yeah, that sounds like a good day at church Ray. I envy you. We attended today, first time in awhile. It was Branch Conference. Unfortunately I heard two good talks by the stake people, utterly ruined by the time they got to the end of them. One was on the sacrament. Pretty good until the lady went off about the “importance and sacredness of wearing a white shirt to bless and pass the sacrament,” and how “members should partake of the sacrament with their right hand, as a symbol of standing on the right hand of god” and how the white sheet covering the trays represents the body of Christ.
It’s been years since I heard the right hand comment. Good to know that some insanities will never die.
-sigh-In the very next sentence after she talked about these three things, she made the statement that the sacrament is not an outward ceremony, but a inward personal covenant between the person and god. Yeah, I agree. To bad the church won’t believe it. Why would we care if the folks are wearing white shirts and taking the sacrament with their right hand?
The second talk was about personal righteousness. 5 minutes on personal prayer. 5 minutes on study the scriptures. All really good stuff. And then 10 minutes on the need to be a current TR holding member of the church.
Temple recommend = personal righteousness.Pretty obvious message about mormons being more righteous than the other 99.9% of the population, and that the TR mormons are more righteous than those who don’t have one. jwald was really upset. We packed up and came home after sacrament meeting. We just cannot listen to this kind stuff anymore. It is just so depressing and discouraging.
We came home from church and sat the kids down. I made the point that 90% of what I heard at church was very very good, gospel centered stuff. I told my kids that I just cannot focus on that 90% and keep putting the little things on “the shelf” like I did for so many years. The shelf is broken. We also made it clear, that even though the LDS church is not working for us, it’s probably as good as any them and that we would find problems and items that would have to be shelved going to any kind of church at this time.
Organized religion is a nice school, a useful tool to find the gods…it taught me a lot…I give the LDS church a lot of credit.
But, perhaps there comes a time when one must graduate from school and just apply the lessons learned the best they can in the real world.
cwald wrote:… even though the LDS church is not working for us, it’s probably as good as any them and that we would find problems and items that would have to be shelved going to any kind of church at this time.
I hear you. Hang in there and keep on keeping on. In some sense, it really is all good, no matter which way it works out with you and the church.
Quote:But, perhaps there comes a time when one must graduate from school and just apply the lessons learned the best they can in the real world.
My wife told me one day she thinks of me as being in independent study. I kind of like that, I guess.
cwald wrote:how the white sheet covering the trays represents the body of Christ.
really? That’s a new one for me.cwald wrote:And then 10 minutes on the need to be a current TR holding member of the church.
Temple recommend = personal righteousness.Pretty obvious message about mormons being more righteous than the other 99.9% of the population, and that the TR mormons are more righteous than those who don’t have one. jwald was really upset. We packed up and came home after sacrament meeting. We just cannot listen to this kind stuff anymore. It is just so depressing and discouraging.
all these things are personal opinion being told as doctrine in a way. somehow it is acceptable in the church to spout personal opinion as if it were doctrine if it creates more of a fence around the law, making the church seem more righteous. but if you spout legitimate logic as to how certain personal opinion goes well beyond the mark, you’re in trouble.My DW and I were discussing yesterday how the temple district is trying to get more male ordinance workers here. I said that it might be easier to do so if they relaxed the rule about facial hair.
She said, “Why do you fight these things, they must have a reason for doing so.”
I said, “Facial hair, white shirts, all that stuff is policy, not doctrine. Policies have a consequence, and it’s quite simply that if you make a policy that you cannot have facial hair and be an ordinance worker, then you’ll have less ordinance workers.”
She then told me, “They have a new policy that a single (unmarried) male over 30 cannot be an ordinance worker in our district. Something about how there are males who just want to party about and not get married.”
I said, “Ok, so if someone has homosexual inclination and chooses to stay celebate per official church policy, he cannot be an ordinance worker? After all, the church now officially recognizes that homosexual leaning does not constitute sin.”
She responded, “Why are you always making trouble.”
I said, “DW, this isn’t a trivial issue with me. We have a DD who finds the church hostile, and the church’s position on this flies in the face of moral conduct. It is discrimination and it is wrong.”
She said, “I already know your opinion on that….”
and so it goes.
I think human nature at times is bigoted, elitist, and exclusionary against those who are different. White shirts, rigid symbolism, purported righteousness, and then to make rules and regulations that prevent people from serving should they want to serve based upon appearance or a subtle discrimination against those who might have SSA. I really hate this crap.
[/rant]
Quote:how the white sheet covering the trays represents the body of Christ.
I’ve never heard that in all my years in the Church.
wayfarer, I also agree about the 30+-year-old single temple worker crap. It’s crap – and I know people who serve in temples who are 30+-year-old single members. I hope that never becomes church-wide policy.
:thumbdown: Old-Timer wrote:Quote:how the white sheet covering the trays represents the body of Christ.
I’ve never heard that in all my years in the Church.
wayfarer, I also agree about the 30+-year-old single temple worker crap. It’s crap – and I know people who serve in temples who are 30+-year-old single members. I hope that never becomes church-wide policy.
:thumbdown: This is the second time I have heard it this year. The last time was from the HC. It must be a stake thing.
I talked about it here some
http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2830&hilit=white+sheet ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2830&hilit=white+sheet I’m glad we’re having this discussion about policy. At one time, I cared deeply about my “status” in the organization and the priviledges it allowed me. Now, I don’t care at all. Next time I go to the temple, it won’t be because I want the status or the confidence that I’m somehow part of the elect of God as the elite righteous gruop — it will be because I want to be there. It’s sad that as a church, we use the temple as an extrinsic motivator for people — denying them certain non-temple priviledges because they arent’ a TR holder. Particularly when God wants a kingdom which “flows unto [Him] without compulsory means”.
I have always taken that D&C 121 phrase to mean He wants people who are instrinsically motivated to do good, and are self-starters who act for virtue itself — not to avoid external punishments or gather extrinsic rewards.
It’s sad to see the temple used this way to punish and reward people extrinsically.
I’m in Draper today for Church right next to the Draper temple. Interestingly, here is an amazing chapel with just two wards in it, and I think there were about 120 in attendance. In my ward in Northern Virginia, we’re pushing 300, well into the cultural hall, and there are already three wards sharing a building smaller than this one. In one of talks, the sister brought up seeing a piece of artwork showing the violence done to Joseph Smith while he lived at the Johnson’s house in 1832. She mentioned the violence of the mob trying to pour nitric acid into his mouth, and may have mentioned something about a ‘surgery’, although she may have missed that point. She pointed out how this was right after Joseph Smith revealed section 76, and how this was Satan trying to destroy the church.
The reality is a bit different: The Johnsons had four adult boys and a 16 year old daughter, Nancy Matilda, who later was to marry Orson Hyde, and then while Hyde was away on a mission, Joseph Smith married Matilda in 1842, one of his polyandrous wives — she didn’t divorce Orson until 1870. Nice. The standard, correlated curriculum states that the mob was inspired by Ezra Booth’s letters to the editor published several months previously. I read these letters in SM today, and there was nothing inflamatory in them. The truth seems to be that the Johnson boys felt that Joseph had inappropriate intimate relations with Matilda, and they wanted to make sure that Joseph didn’t continue to do such things. They were joined with other mormon members that were equally frustrated with the apparent impropriety of the whole situation.
The key is that they wanted a doctor to perform a surgery on Joseph — castrate him — the doctor refused. They were a bit upset, to say the least.
Yet, here it is, sacrament meeting talks, and the myth-making of how Joseph was the innocent besieged by satan and the apostates.
I was also reading that in Romans, Paul suggests that we don’t upset the basis of belief of those who find it important to believe a certain way. i wonder, though. I’m not particularly upset with Joseph Smith’s humanity and failings. His visions and insight were absolutely sublime. What concerns me is the ongoing cover-up of legitimate history. If someone is going to raise one of the faith-promoting myths (like the tarring and feathering incident — the myth being the cause of tarring and feathering), then I think it’s important to discuss the entire incident, or to at least not use the cover story as the faith-promoting part of the myth.
Too much to ask, I guess.
Being here in Utah is an eye-opening experience for this ‘mission-fielder’. resuming my wayfaring tomorrow, back to virginia, and thence wherever.
Yeah, too much to ask. 😮 My day was a mixed bag:
Sacrament Meeting was the YM Presidency (all four of them) talking about the YM program and Scouting. Three talks were spiritual and principle-focused. I didn’t like the topic, necessarily, but the talks actually were quite nice. (Yes, that’s a Princess Bride reference.) The second talk, however, was WAY too long – story after story after story . . . It left only about five minutes for the last two talks – which would have been the best two talks, frankly. Even with the topic, it could have been an excellent meeting – and ended up being just ok. Oh, well.
Sunday School was good, largely because we have a great teacher – a former Bishop who is a real scholar and is not “orthodox” with regard to many things.
Priesthood meeting was quite good. The lesson was about Jesus, was well-prepared and had some really cool moments.
I got up early, sat on the porch with jwald and enjoyed a gorgeous central Oregon morning. We decided not to risk ruining such a good start to the sabbath by going to church. I put on my sandels and shorts and worked on my tan (sunburn).
I played baseball with the boys.
I mowed the lawn.
About church time, I walked down the drive way to the road, sipping on IPA, and was just minding my own business, watching the few cars go by, thinking about my spiritual journey and what not. A stranger i have never seen before walks down the road to where I am standing. This guy is about 70ish, and tells me he is traveling from Boise to Medford, and he is broke down and has a flat tire about a mile down the road. On Sunday, the closest garage or mechanic is in Bend, 110 miles away. This guy has no jack, no lug wrench, no tools to get his spare out from the bottle of the rig, and no one one to call…pretty well no resources or no know-how, to fix it. His options are limited.
I fixed it.
It took about two hours…had some complications.
This guy starts to tell me how bad he feels that I had to give up my sunday to help him, and tries to pay me 40 bucks. I don’t take it. I tell him that this is exactly what I would like to do on a Sunday, and that I purposely don’t go to church because religion has failed me, and that I’m tired of going to church every sunday and talking about how special and blessed I am because I have the truth. And that people should try a little more “do on Sundays, and a little less talk.”
He agrees.
He takes some of my tools…just in case…. he’ll drop them off next week on his way back through to Boise, along with a case of Mirror Pond (saw my “to recycle” bottles in the shed I guess)
He asked me if I know the story about the good Samaritan.
He tells me that if I am unhappy with my church, I should try finding a different one.
I tell him I’m not really interested in religion.
He then asked me if I know anything about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and that he think they have small congregation out here somewhere.
🙂 “Yes. I have heard of them. Even know a few.”
Now let me ask something StayLDS folks This guy thinks I am the epitome of the good Samaritan…literally, he probably considers me a true disciple Christ and a great great man who will accept proxy temple ordinances in the next life and make it to the CK.
He walked into my world, saw me drinking beer, shirtless, garmet-less, mowing my lawn…all on a sunday during church time, and heard me vent about my frustration with church and religion.
Will his opinion of me change when he finds out that I am an endowed, RM, married in the temple, former EQP, member of his church?I want to give him the benefit of the doubt….but….I know my culture so well
Something to think about, isn’t it?
Cwald, I would LOVE to share this story in a talk or lesson. Would you mind? I’m nowhere near Oregon.
Please. Please. Please…. (begging)
Cate
mercyngrace wrote:Cwald,
I would LOVE to share this story in a talk or lesson. Would you mind? I’m nowhere near Oregon.
Please. Please. Please…. (begging)
Cate
Share away.
cwald, I love your story. You are an inspiration to me. God does have a sense of humor. Mike from Milton.
cwald, Thanks
Mike,
Quote:God does have a sense of humor.
Doesn’t He though
My Sunday wasn’t quite as interesting but I did teach today and that’s always an adventure. I was assigned three talks from the October GC. I held up copies of the talks at the beginning of the class, read the titles and speakers’ names and then set them on the table, never to be turned to again. LOL. I didn’t actually mean for that to happen but I felt led in a different direction so I went with it. I’m starting to think people listen to me out of sheer curiosity…. hahahaha.
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