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But no compelling reasons (at least to my mind) have been offered.
Fwiw, I don’t like intellectually compelling reasons, and I try hard not to craft my own views as intellectually compelling. I don’t like compulsion of pretty much any kind – except experiences that hit me to the core and have an effect I can’t deny. Personally, I like having to figure things out from among multiple perspectives that all have varying degrees of merit, since I want my conclusion to be mine and not what I feel compelled to accept.
If no reasons you’ve seen here work for you, fine. We aren’t here to provide reasons that will be compelling about anything. Seriously, that’s not part of our mission.
We’re here mostly to show that there are far more people than most struggling members realize who are going through the process and finding differing reasons that resonate with them individually. What I see as a significant reason, cwald and cadence and everyone else can reject as meaningless for them. I’m totally fine with that. Likewise, I am free to ignore what is significant to them as simply not working for me. (I even mentioned that principle in our High Priests Group lesson today – that I don’t get inspiration or revelation through dreams, but I value those experiences when they happen to others.)
I think I mentioned a concept a Buddhist shared with me years ago — called the Shaman Exercise. It’s an Indian exercise where people from all different ranks and position within a community come together. A person stands in the middle with an issue, and each person is asked to comment on the issue from their own perspective, working the circle.
At the end, there is no community/consensus conclusion. Instead, each person — the person in the center, and all the participants — come away with the answer that is right for them.
That’s how I view STayLDS. If you feel there are no compelling intellectual reasons for the Mall and the inconsistent behavior of the church in this regard (and I tend to agree with you) then that is a fruitful discussion.
I differ from you though, in saying that the LDS theology may not seem to have some saving power in the next life. I’m not sure it’s as potent and as absolute as many LDS members believe anymore given my life experiences over 2.5 decades. But I personally feel God wanted me to part of this experience for some reason. I find it hard to turn my back on it for that reason — and that leads to this search for peace within it — in spite of the malls, the overzealous leaders I’ve known, the hurtful members I’ve experienced, the tendency for the church to put its own interests in front of the members, the poor ancillary support services to members, and the often time-wasting sacrifices that seem to be demanded/expected at different times.
Old-Timer wrote:cwald,
1) The Church is required to report on its expenditures for this project, since it was funded through the business wing of the organization. The total expenditures are a matter of public record.
2) Every story I’ve ever read (from multiple sources) puts the total cost of the development of the entire project (not just the mall itself) at $1.5-$2 billion dollars.
3) Saying the Church spent 3 billion dollars building a mall simply isn’t accurate, based on the published statements. They spent up to $2 billion for a project that included a mall, housing units, urban landscaping and other elements of a comprehensive neighborhood renovation plan.
Again, the overall amount of expense can be addressed, as can the choice of how to spend it, but the Church didn’t spend billions of dollars to finance the building of a mall. It simply didn’t do that. The mall was only on part of the overall project the Church funded.
Okay.
Temple Square, the SL Temple, the Church Office Building, the Conference Center, the JS Memorial Building and the old Church Administration Building are the hub of the Church. Literally millions of visitors come through SLC every year, and a large percentage come through Temple Square. When I lived in SLC I enjoyed the annual pilgrammage to Temple Square for the Christmas lights and a MoTab concert. The areas of SLC directly south and west of Temple Square were in danger of significant urban decay. In order for the Church to maintain a friendly, inviting atmosphere at Temple Square, the urban blight south and west of Temple Square had to be addressed. The western area was adequately re-developed into the Gateway by private investors. SLC government was incapable of addressing the downtown, south temple issue on their own. The only entity in SLC capable of addressing the blight is the Church. I, for one, would not like to see the areas around Temple Square resemble Gary, Indiana or East St. Louis. For better or worse, SLC is seen as the Mormon capital (even though demographically just under half of SLC proper are actually LDS). Boarded-up store-fronts, dive bars, tattoo parlors and feckless urban denizens don’t portray the appropriate atmosphere just south and west of Temple Square.
Last point – the Church did not just piss that money away: it’s an investment. Because of the opacity of the Church’s overall finances (a valid point of complaint, IMO) I don’t know the true figure for the costs, nor am I privy to the ownership arrangements, but I know several of the guys who work for various aspects of the Church’s business empire, and they’re not in the habit of investing in enterprises that don’t turn profits. So I guess the Church could have given each of the world’s 1 billion underfed people $1.50 to $3 each (depending on whose figures you use) in a one-time block grant, or it could have invested its resources in a long-term commercial real estate venture with a likely promise of return on investment in order to keep the Church’s hub from being bordered by urban decay. I’m actually okay with either choice.
Roy wrote:Ok Guys, I have a question.
If we assume the following criteria:
A) That the LDS Church is not personally led by Jesus Christ. (For example – if the Catholics spent a great sum of money on a similar redevelopment project in Rome.)
That you as an individual do not pay tithing. (This hopefully would take out the personal aspect of the issue.)Please help me understand if the City Creek Mall would still be upsetting to you. If so, please include your reasoning.
I’m trying to understand why this is upsetting to people and I’d like to explore more than what may be on the surface.
It’s still upsetting to me because:A) Most of my family & friends are being conned into paying up for worthiness, for (a significant #) unworthy uses of funds.
It’s a lie & deception… using Jesus Christ’s name to make money… this is the one thing that ticked Jesus off (temple money changers).C) When I know something is wrong, especially when it is using Christ for evil purposes, I feel compelled to stand up & say so.
[ Admin Note: Featherina, you’ve now called the LDS Church leadership liars, deceivers and perpetuators of evil for something that is extremely subjective – and you’ve done so by focusing on a statement from early in the Old Testament. That absoluely crosses the line here at StayLDS.com. Your comments on other threads are productive and appropriate; they aren’t here in this thread – and there is nothing whatsoever that is new in your latest comments that hasn’t been said already in your previous comments in this thread.
I’m locking this thread , so the admins can talk about it and decide whether to keep it locked or open it again for further comment.]
I know the City Creek Mall is a hot button topic. It’s a thorn of an issue, and I struggle to find positive things about it personally too. I think this thread has run its course. We decided it isn’t working towards support and solutions. I’m not directing this at anyone in particular. I can be guilty of falling into this briar patch at times too. Let’s try to keep in mind this part of our community “rules and etiquette”:
Quote:PLEASE NOTE: Sharing stories of disappointment and frustration must be done in a way that fosters a discussion about solutions. Feel free to share something that bothers you along with a solution that worked for you personally. Feel free to share something that bothers you and ask for help or alternative viewpoints and solutions from the community. If you only post a problem, and we can’t figure out how to turn it into a discussion in line with the mission of StayLDS, it will probably be deleted or a moderator will ask you to edit the post.
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=21 If anyone wants to start a new thread to discuss a different aspect of the City Creek Mall, and how to resolve feelings or change the situation, feel free to do that.
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