Clear cut introduction

[Anonymous]

Hey everybody,

I posted a little back story in the support forum but I just wanted to put a more clear introduction here and where I currently stand.

This is my timeline.

-Grew up LDS in Colorado. All of my family is VERY TBM. My local extended family (mom’s side) is all VERY TBM with exception of one of my cousins. Despite going to school with one other Mormon, I’ve been constantly surrounded by Mormonism.

-Even in primary I remember thinking “would if this isn’t true?”. I still believed but I always had the “what if?”.

-I hated seminary, boy scouting, and priesthood responsibilities like hometeaching and passing the sacrament. I never got anything out of scriptures. Sometimes I got things from lessons. Having that said I still loved church. I loved mutual. I loved activities. I loved the community. I love boy scouting when it wasn’t about merit badges.

-I was a very good Mormon kid besides masturbation that started in middle school. In fact, I had no idea what I was doing was consider bad! It just felt great. Then one day I figure out that I was masturbating. Sometimes I look at porn but I got right off of that. It was very rare thing. I never had the courage to say anything to anybody.

-I was forced to be a seminary graduate and be an eagle scout and I hated both. Didn’t effect my testimony but it did leave a bad taste in my mouth.

-My first huge hit on my testimony was my mission age. People would not leave me alone about it. I still didn’t repent from masturbation and porn so I knew I was unworthy but everywhere I went I was told it was time to go on a mission. There was no escape. I went to a college town that had a decent size YSA ward and institute building. I felt like nobody really wanted me around. They were trying to get rid of me. I leave the stories in an another thread but believe me, it was emotional abusive. That’s when I started to really consider if this gospel wasn’t true.

-At some point during my mission pressure era I finally confessed about masturbation and porn just so my bishop can lay off of me going on a mission. That didn’t really stop him from bullying me.

-In my early 20s I finally rose above the pressure and stood up against people who pressuring me. I stil lhad my doubts.

-In my mid 20s I was lucky enough that I had a convert who dated me (nobody would date me because my non RM status) We dated a very long time. She had her doubts and we weren’t strict about the church. We messed up on sexual stuff but we repented then fell back into it. I had my doubts but nothing close to a faith crisis. In my late 20s she finally she dump me because we kept on messing around and just us being in a bad relationship. This motivated me to be become better at the church and repent again. I was probably at highest point with my testimony. Still had doubts, but I really believed.

-during my spiritual high point (still no endowments at this point I dated my dream girl (so i thought at the time). Very liberal and very into feminists and she had HUGE problems with women not having the same rights as men with the priesthood. She struggle with porn and sexual sins from her past boyfriend that she was engage to (keep note. he was an RM). After he dump her she even left the church completely but then came back because of very spiritual experiences. Think voices, and other supernatural things like feeling being hug when no one was there. Even after these experiences she still had huge problems with church. She said she didn’t had a problem with me not going on a mission. Then she started to be concern about my testimony and how I haven’t got my endowments. Here’s the weird thing. She ask me to have sex with her and I told her no. She flipped out completely over it. She even grab my crouch a couple of times and she had organisms when made out because she kept rubbing against me. Then said my position in church was a “concern” because of me not going on a mission and not having my endowments. She dump me over it. This didn’t mess up me spiritually, but it messed up on how I view LDS women and how I have a lot of anxiety around them. I have to be perfect. There is no room for discussion even if they struggle.

-After she dump me I went through depression because I couldn’t get over her. Everyday I try to think of a way to get out of it. I talk to my branch president to help me out but nothing was working. I finally had a spiritual revelation that got me over her. One day I had a feeling to sign up on POF (non lds dating site) just for fun and I was starting to think about non lds women. And right before me there she was. Her profile. I wasn’t even looking for her. I figure she left the church and started to date non lds guys! I thought this was a sign that god love me so much that he made it not work and he wanted to protect me from her. I had a intense feeling of love and emotion. 8 months of depression ended in literally minutes. It was completely amazing. Never experience this before. In hindsight, I probably made way to many assumptions and I was a bit hypocritical but I’ll elaborate why I dismiss this event later as a spiritual experience.

-Shortly after I found another girl on a LDS dating site. She lived in DC but were lucky enough to see each other a lot because she would stop on her way to see family in Utah and she had flying perks. My spirituality was high but over the year I started to have more and more things go on my shelf. She dump me over nothing over the church but it made me ask “is this worth it?”. Shortly after I started to get very serious about things that has been collecting on my shelf. For the first time I look at the church with a critical eye. The sad part is I know why I did this. I was 30 and I was going to be kick out of YSA and I was afraid of being alone for the rest of my life.

-Things started to really crumble when I had interaction with a guy on facebook on how LDS members should know better when they find about stuff in church history. I got in a huge argument and I started to wonder if god had mercy in those who left the church based on church history.

-Earlier this year I started to take notes. Read CES letter, read the FAIR wiki, read rough stone rolling. I wrote so many pages of notes. I study psychology and how spiritual experiences can be artificial. Then I realize that my spiritual experience of me getting over depression was just sheer desperation to find a connection. My mind thought it was miracle but really it was just coincidence. For the rest of this year I’ve been flipping back and forth.

Alright so here is where I’m currently at the church (8/31/15).

Sum it up: Faith Crisis

-I don’t believe the BoM is historical true or the BoA is historical true.

-I believe that Joseph Smith isn’t a con man… on purpose. I think he really believes what he saw. He never really show any self awareness that he was making this up. However, I believe truths claims about visions and golden plates aren’t real. He just convince himself it was real along with the witnesses. A lot of this just psychology.

-I believe the church is mostly good. Word of Wisdom, Law of Chastity, the atonement, and many church principles are ahead in the curve in morals. Those values I can get behind.

-Spiritual experiences are just artificial mind tricks…. but….

-Even I believe the above… I still feel the spirit when I pray. I always thought this would go away, but it hasn’t. It’s really confusing.

-Like I’ve said above I’ve had really intense spiritual experiences. Every once awhile I get feelings of the spirit over small ideas (ie one of my spiritual conformation is that I’ll never know that the church is true).

-I’ve never had that one spiritual conformation the church true. I literally feel nothing when I ask. I’ve ask a billion times and nothing.

-I love being part of the church as a community. I think it’s great.

-I disagree how the church handles LGBT. Forcing them into a marriage or have life long celibacy is wrong. I wish the church can “exempt” them telling them they don’t need to be in the church to be in good standing in god. (I understand why they don’t do this, it just doesn’t fit with the plan of salvation at all. It’s still heart breaking members).

-Polyandry oddly doesn’t bother me. I think it makes a lot of since with other gospel principles. If the church is true, I think Joseph Smith was on to something with the idea of a our eternal family and us literally being connected to each other through marriage as a web, rather as a horizontal marriages as we do now. It’s a big family. Hell, if the church said we had to start polygamy and polyandry it wouldn’t bother me much at all. I’m aware how weird this sounds but it is what it is.

-My fear is that church and other women in the church won’t accept where I’m at. I don’t want to force my kids into seminary, scouting, missions or even church every Sunday (3 hours just eats too much time). If I have son who is gay, I don’t even want him to go to church unless he really feels like it works.

-Even if I don’t have my endowments, the temple freaks me out. It isn’t for me. I don’t find peace in any of it.

-I’ve talk to my dad about my doubts but I don’t think he knows the extent of how close I am thinking about leaving and how much it hurts. I’ve try to have discussions with him but it turns into the church is true and him not really wanting understand where I’m coming from.

Anyways, that’s about it. I think this a good summary where I’m at. Again…

1. In faith Crisis right now.

2. I want to make the church work because I love 80% of it.

3. I want to marry a LDS girl with similar values without being molly Mormon about everything.

4. Family pressure is keeping me in to an extent. (I know this is bad)

5. I want to be part of the church on my terms.

6. Still figuring out stuff.

I think that’s it for now. I’ll keep everybody posted where I’m heading.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the formal introduction. Intros really help us understand each other. I appreciate your candor.

Many of use here have the same concerns and doubts you do. The church can still work, but it takes effort on your part. Let go of the guilt (easier said than done) and focus on the core principles of the gospel which you apparently believe. To make the church work on your terms you need to come to an understanding of the difference between the church and the gospel. I believe God does love all his children (as in God loved us so he sent his son) and I believe in the infinite atonement. These are gospel principles as well as church doctrine – believe in them as they are taught in the scriptures, not as they are sometimes taught in testimony meeting and gospel doctrine class.

[Anonymous]

I did not leave for a mission until I was almost 21. Although I did eventually decide to serve a mission myself, I remember the pressure being pretty intense (Bishop’s meetings, HT visits, and girls not wanting to date me).

Dating in the church can be funny too. Many women are looking for an RM/honorable priesthood holder to take them to the temple. Just a few weeks ago I heard a talk where it was stated that these were the important things to look for in a potential marriage partner. I myself have been dumped because the young woman did not receive a confirmation to her prayer about me – so in other words “God” apparently did not want us to be together.

mczee wrote:

The sad part is I know why I did this. I was 30 and I was going to be kick out of YSA and I was afraid of being alone for the rest of my life.

I understand where you are coming from. Many of the things we teach do not matter if they are true in the historical sense. It only matters how it effects your life. When church teachings help you to lead a life of purpose and safety within the community they are useful. When church teachings help you to feel marginalized or ostracized they are less useful and examining if all these teachings are even historically true starts to make more and more sense.

mczee wrote:

I want to marry a LDS girl with similar values without being molly Mormon about everything.

My own advice is to try to find a woman that is the type of woman you want her to be on the inside regardless of the titles or labels that she may adhere to on the outside. Results may vary.

mczee wrote:

I want to be part of the church on my terms.

Me too! It is a volunteer organization. Boundaries are important. Sometimes learning to manage some peer pressure to do more, more, more without being disrespectful can be a delicate balance but it is worth it in my life. For me and me alone, it has been invaluable to realize that the church has no effect on my standing with God. My eternal soul is not in jeopardy. The church becomes more like a religiously themed service/charitable organization.

Welcome to the island of misfit toys McZee. :wave:

[Anonymous]

mczee wrote:

1. In faith Crisis right now.

2. I want to make the church work because I love 80% of it.

3. I want to marry a LDS girl with similar values without being molly Mormon about everything.

4. Family pressure is keeping me in to an extent. (I know this is bad)

5. I want to be part of the church on my terms.

6. Still figuring out stuff.

Hi, mczee :wave: I’m glad you’re here.

1. You’ve come to a good place.

2. 80% is better than I do some days.

3. There are girls out there who want the same thing.

4. Family pressure isn’t all bad. It keeps me from acting rashly.

5. We talk a lot here about boundaries, and costs and benefits of being part of a group.

6. It’s an ongoing process for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Welcome to StayLDS mczee. :wave:

[Anonymous]

mczee, thank you for your intro. Much of what you talk about is common with many of us on this site.

I don’t have much time to respond for now.

Welcome

[Anonymous]

Interesting biography. I appreciate you sharing it. At first I was puzzled with the latest girfriend’s request for a physical relationship, while simultaneously expressing concerns about your endowments and mission. HOwever, I realized I don’t want to be judgmental as there may be more than meets the eye. With some of my own life experiences I can see how a righteous person might want to have some assurance of sexual compatibility before marriage — and be willing to “break the rules” once in order to test it. While still wanting to buy into the rest of Mormonism. I wouldn’t encourage it if the potential bride and groom felt it was unecessary, but I understand the need for it in some folks.

I will say that in my view, it’s an inappropriate use of power by the church to entwine mission-serving with husband-worthiness. Achieving membership growth is an organizational goal — it benefits the church directly. And to make a person’s “worthiness” to females (culturally) dependent on whether the man served a mission is not right, in my view. It is interfering with a person’s long-term happiness out of selfish, organizational egocentrism.

Also, as I’ve grown older and seen the diversity of strengths and emotional tolerance various people have, I fully believe a mission is the wrong thing for some people, a neutral thing for others, and a wonderful thing for other men.

I would also like to add that your story highlights a pattern I have seen in others. That when the textbook approach to life the church prescribes does not work out, it often hurts people’s commitment. I’ve seen it with temple marriages, I’ve seen it with people who choose not to serve missions, I’ve seen it when there is church discipline, and when

Thanks for that clear cut introduction — looking forward to hearing more from you.

[Anonymous]

Thank you for joining us and sharing your story. I’ve had a lot of the same concerns that you had and for me this is been a great place to ponder about things, read other people’s solutions, and mostly think things through for myself. Something that occurred to me today which is kind of fitting with you were spiritual feelings when getting the spirit at the same time, I have also gone back and forth on whether the Spirit is the spirit, or just human emotions. I believe and I hope in the spirit and I’ve had spiritual experiences that I highly doubt came from within myself, believe that they came from an external spiritual source. Something that occurred to me today what is this feeling I had as I was reading the scriptures, and impressions came to me that were clear concise understandable to my soul, as I started to write them down it all got lost in the process. I think many things the life for like this where we have special experiences and try to relate them and they just don’t come across like they should. partially because the Spirit is spirit, and words are words. Thank you for your insight and I wish you hope and prosperity wherever your journey takes you.

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