Co-Dependents R’ Us

[Anonymous]

Well, I’ve wanted to do this thread for awhile, it seems the time may have come. Wasn’t sure which section to put this under but “Support” seems the most appropriate.

There’s so many aspects to co-dependency that it’s hard to even start. I’d like to just open the thread to all forms of co-dependency though, for the purposes of this site, the big ones are co-dependency on the church and co-dependency with a spouse.

First, I’ll just flesh out my thoughts on what co-dependency looks like abstractly. Co-dependent relationships are recognizable because a “system” has been created, wherein the participants act, think, speak relative to the other participants in the system, in ways that they wouldn’t to anyone outside the system.

Most common is family systems. Parents speak to their own children totally different then they speak to other children. Parents are emotionally invested in their own kids behavior, success, failure, and feel it in unhealthy ways. (Embarrassed by actions, disappointed by “mistakes”, etc) We all were probably raised this way and most of us are struggling to not raise our kids this way.

But that is where we learn that this is life. We expect others to live up to our ideal because we’re living up to their ideal. We expect to be appreciated for our efforts because we’re trying so hard to do what they want us to do. We expect love when we give love, we expect respect when we give respect, we expect rewards when we sacrifice.

But, there’s one big problem with this. We can’t control what others do, think, say. And, inevitably, they don’t meet our expectations. Now, we’re disappointed. We express how disappointed we are. They’re trapped in a sense of wanting to re-gain the approval from us, and may do or say something to appease us but in their heart, they’re resentful. Eventually, that comes out and we get resentful right back.

And, the system is created.

Spouses say things to each other that they wouldn’t dare ever say to anyone else. But the system allows it. Encourages it. Because it perpetuates itself. It’s almost as if the system is it’s own entity, forcing the participants to continue to participate. And, in some ways, it is. Because we can’t leave our parents. We can’t leave our spouse. We can’t leave our church.

Instead, we try harder. We push harder to get approval. We strive to live up to someone else’s standard. But, humans and organizations are a living, changing thing. The goal posts are shifting. The target is often obscured. Sometimes we hit a homerun (sweet, lots of sex tonight) sometimes we fail without even knowing it (crap, no sex tonight).

But, we’re living for others. And, they’re living for others. Really, more succinctly, we’re living for the system. “You better not do anything to soil this family’s good name”.

The system demands attention to the external. You not only must act right, you better look the part. Problems are left under rugs. Tough conversations are left unspoken. True feelings are hidden for the external expectation. “I’m doing what I’m supposed to be doing so I must be happy. To be happy is to look happy.”

We then manipulate the system’s other participants to get the love and approval we need. “I had the worst day at work today”. “Oh, you don’t even know the half of it. I had the worst day at work today”. And, the score-keeping begins. “How can you go play golf when I’ve been stuck in this house all week?” That’s not really what’s said. That’s the implication. What’s said is often more like: “The kids really miss their daddy cause they don’t get to see him enough.”

This game of score-keeping and manipulation is the ocean we swim in when involved in these systems. Dad says to disobedient child: “Why do you want to hurt your mom?” Spouse to spouse: “I’m so tired but I have to do this laundry.” EQ president to slacking HT’ers: “The Lord is disappointed by your efforts.”

Everyone is concerned with what everyone else is doing. The participants of the system trap the other participants in the same way that they feel trapped. But, it’s not a conscious choice. It’s the way it is.

We all have a place inside where we need love, compassion, approval, gentleness, strength. When we look for these things in external sources, we’re reaching out to create a system.

Emotional health is being able to provide yourself with all of the love, compassion, approval, etc. from inside, internally. We aren’t affected by what others say about us. Or by what others think about us. Or by how others treat us. We’re the most beautiful, magnificent creatures alive and we love ourselves for being ourselves. We embrace our personal journey because we love that we get to traverse life with ourselves.

And, in this place of emotional health, we can reach out to others with unconditional love. Not because we want anything from them. Just because we like to feel close to others. If the other attempts to manipulate this pure intention, we create a boundary, where the other is not allowed to cross.

In the codependent system, there are no boundaries. “All’s fair in love and war.” We can hurt, manipulate, coerce, resent all we want. And, the darkness of the system will prevail.

Sorry for the length of this.

How has everyone else found ways to gain emotional health through recovering from co-dependency?

[Anonymous]

I may have used this quote here before, but it’s from the play “Art”: If I am who I am because you are who you are, then I am not who I am. And if you are who you are because I am who I am, then you are not who you are.” I think it’s not only incredibly difficult to ever really know another person without ourselves getting in the way, but it’s also difficult to know ourselves because who we are in relation to others around us gets in the way.

When people I work with get negative feedback, sometimes it can be very difficult for them to deal with. There is a model for changing relationships with others that goes like this (in a circle):

1 – I see (the things you do that make me assume certain things about you)

2 – I act (in accordance with those assumptions)

3 – you see (my actions that are based on my assumptions)

4 – you act (in response to those actions that are based on those assumptions)

When I think someone is a nasty piece of work and I treat them as if they are going to be difficult, they often don’t disappoint. The only way to change a relationship is to start with #2 instead of #1 and to deliberately erase the assumptions we have about the other person and imagine them positively. If we expect others to be wonderful / helpful / good-natured / acting the best they can, and we act as if those things are true, they often do that – but they do so because MY actions have changed, and I have been less difficult.

[Anonymous]

swimordie wrote:

How has everyone else found ways to gain emotional health through recovering from co-dependency?

First…well said, Swim. (I know you don’t need MY approval, but I liked it anyway! )

For time purposes, my long story will be succinct (stop cheering, everybody!). I was “forced” out of my codependency. I lived in circumstances where I was alone much of the time, and it was darn lonely in the beginning. I had been studying addiction/codependency, so I knew of the concept, but hadn’t really experienced my own contrasts until then…and it was deep! I was living in the “wilderness” of Southern Utah — beautiful country, and came to quite appreciate the beauties there, and the solitude. But for WEEKS, maybe months, I craved people — and felt the need to be loved by others. It was so obvious to me.

But I really doubt I would have even started to really understand it if I hadn’t lived alone for a while…and learned to love myself. But from that time, it became natural to be okay with rejection, lack of approval, etc…since I was always okay to “go it alone” if I needed to.

THen as an addictions counselor, I was exposed to the screaming codependency common in addict’s relationships. It majorly dotted the i’s and crossed the t’s of what I had learned. These “systems” Swim speaks of have learned to utilize codependency to their advantage — including churches.

But THAT’S another long story!

😆

[Anonymous]

Thanks for this Swim!

This is something I’m still working on (as you know). I somehow learned when I was young that humility meant putting myself down in order to lift others up. The least was the greatest…so I better like myself least. I was happy only IF those I loved were happy, and not until then. I defined my worth by determining if I was needed by the group (work or church) and if they appreciated me. Criticisms meant I was not good enough and I must pressure myself to try harder and harder and harder.

Somehow, some gospel principles of unselfishness, humility, and loving service were twisted to a co-dependency.

I dunno. I’m still trying to stay committed to continuous improvement without continuous self-flagellation (no Hawkgrrrl, that is not a crude body function…stay with me on this serious topic!).

But one thing I have noticed that has helped me get on the right path, is to sincerely love others unconditionally. My kids don’t have to do anything or be anything for me to be proud of them, and I let them know that. There is nothing they can do to keep me from loving them. I may teach them and discipline them…but always let them know I love them.

I have started this with my spouse and my church also…let them do what they do and I can accept whatever happens. However, as with my other thread about my bishop’s visit…I think I am still to passive and don’t take initiative to set the record straight on how I feel and try to explain to them where I really am in my journey because I don’t want to try to seek their approval…yet by saying nothing, I’m allowing them to think I may be in a dangerous place when I don’t really feel I am.

How do you balance not caring about what people think of you and how to set the record straight about how I really feel, despite their unsolicited judgments of me?

Thanks for starting this thread…I am going to need it.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

How do you balance not caring about what people think of you and how to set the record straight about how I really feel, despite their unsolicited judgments of me?

Well, I can’t answer that but I have that exact situation in my life.

My in-laws won’t talk to me about any of what’s gone on in my life. They emotionally abuse my wife in hopes of what, I’m not sure. I’d love to “set the record straight” with them and in hind-sight, I sometimes wish I had at the very beginning. Now, however, the moment has passed and I sense that it’s pointless, futile, etc. I’ve struggled mightily trying to overcome my co-dependency on them and I’m 99% there.

It’s not easy, but I sense that in almost every case, those who are passing judgment are doing it for their own sense of self-assuredness. Nothing I can do about that. If they were honest with themselves, they would probably come talk to me in a respectful way. But, their problems (even if it’s with me) are their problems. Not mine. If they want to work out their own problems, I’d be happy to share my perspective with them. But, it’s their issue, so they have to deal with it on their own time.

That’s where I am currently with that particular situation, anyway…

[Anonymous]

Thanks for this post,

It makes me very nervous. This is one thing I try over and over again to work on. You have to notice what your reaction is to what people say and do and that is very hard to do all the time. Does that make sense???? For example, I feel very inadequate posting on this site. I play the “better than, worse than” game. I definitely feel “worse than” here. Sometimes I don’t even know what posters are even talking about! But I force myself to post and hit that submit button. I know that everyone has different talents and phrasing words and thoughts is really not mine. Is that alright to say? Now, am I looking for approval in saying that? No, actually, I just know my limitations. So, as you can see I have a long way to go. But I love this site and all it is teaching me, so thanks everyone!

[Anonymous]

Quote:

How do you balance not caring about what people think of you and how to set the record straight about how I really feel, despite their unsolicited judgments of me?

Read 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 with that question in mind.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Read 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 with that question in mind.

Yes, Ray…that is a wonderful scripture and Charity is absolutely critical in determining the balance of things and my motives as I choose the balance.

Part of that is having self-respect and charity for my own soul, having enough confidence that regardless of what others do or say, I can have peace which helps me endure in kindness, and to sincerely want to share thoughts with others because I care, not because I seek approval or need to be self-assured that they are wrong and I am right…just simply love and let things happen and enjoy experiences of all kinds.

I LOVE the way Peaceandjoy put it in her well-phrased and well-worded post:

Peaceandjoy wrote:

I force myself to post and hit that submit button. … I just know my limitations. … But I love this site and all it is teaching me, so thanks everyone!

Knowing my limitations and being ok with it, and forcing myself to hit the submit button is what I strive to do more of. Thanks to you, Peaceandjoy!

[Anonymous]

I have thought a lot about co-dependency even to the point of my reliance on Jesus Christ. I have lots of co-dependency issues. In some ways the co-dependent structure is nice. I can stand on other people’s foundations such as prophets, religion, family etc. I can blame my choices on them because I didn’t do what I believed but what they believed. I can justify about anything and it makes me feel good. I love feeling good. I can sit under their roof when it rains etc. But God did me a favor this past year. My eyes opened to a new world of possibility and a new world of struggle. The problem with co-dependency is as natural as it seems once a person hits a certain point they realize how damaging it is to one’s on progression in life. The problem with cutting co-dependency is it feels like you’ve cut off the parachute and you are free falling to the ground. And everyone knows how that dream ends. You wake up! At least that is what happened to me. One of my big questions is can I live a life free from co-dependency even in Jesus Christ? Am I co-dependent on him in a good way?

For me this is the year of questions. I’ve spent my whole life seeking and believing in others answers. This year I am trying to find the questions that are in me. What do I believe about Christ, Heavenly Father etc.? What can I do to better my life? What is spirituality to me? What is God to me? I find asking myself questions reminds me to not be so darn co-dependent!

p.s. I’ve also wondered if we are co-dependent to a degree on staylds.com? 😆 😳

[Anonymous]

Heber,

Oh boy, I have to admit that I love that approval, thanks so much.

[Anonymous]

I remember a distinct point in my life, when I was 12 years old, when I broke with a dependence on others for my sense of approval and self. I really wanted to be “cool” and fit in. I really did. But I came to this realization that I did not think like most people. It was both sad and freeing at the same time.

Now I also have to admit this caused other problems for me at times. I have always had a tendency to just do what I am going to do. I am also the type that simply has to touch the hot stove to feel what it is like even if people warn me I will get burned. I ran into a little minor trouble with this for example when I was active duty in the Army (imagine that, lol). I hacked our secure radio network to create an unauthorized sub-network for “those in the know” to share poetry during field exercises (one example)

Anyway, I still had to deal with issues of co-dependency within the Church on some levels. But my personality I think made me transition through my own crisis of faith with less anger and angst. So the Church might not be all true? *shrug* ok, whatever. I already thought people didn’t know what they were talking about half the time in Church, and I always felt compelled to ask the “wrong” questions and point out inconsistency. I’m still going to do my own thing.

[Anonymous]

godlives wrote:

This year I am trying to find the questions that are in me. What do I believe about Christ, Heavenly Father etc.? What can I do to better my life? What is spirituality to me? What is God to me? I find asking myself questions reminds me to not be so darn co-dependent!

I think this approach would allow your relationship to Christ, God, etc. become an emotionally healthy one.

From my perspective, the dangers of co-dependency with a supreme being is when we torture ourselves for not being perfect. For feeling that God is disappointed in us for having dirty thoughts, or forgetting to read our scriptures, or whatever. Or, recognizing that all blessings come from obedience to Him and all difficulties in life are punishment for disobedience to Him.

As adults, our internal, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual lives are too robust to avoid co-dependency on God if our view of God is what I just described. And, unfortunately, the end game has nothing to do with God or belief or dogma but the destitution of our internal lives: no self-esteem, no self-worth, no self-confidence, and, worst of all, an inability to embrace the joie de vivre (joy of living) because we feel unworthy of it.

[Anonymous]

swimordie you keep speaking music to my ears ❗

[Anonymous]

That is a great post. It really has me thinking about a lot of things.

[Anonymous]

Some one sent this to me:

Quote:

“I know a 17-year-old who, just prior to the prophet’s talk, had pierced her ears a second time. She came home from the fireside, took off the second set of earrings, and simply said to her parents, “If President Hinckley says we should only wear one set of earrings, that’s good enough for me.””

“Wearing two pair of earrings may or may not have eternal consequences for this young woman, but her willingness to obey the prophet will. And if she will obey him now, on something relatively simple, how much easier it will be to follow him when greater issues are at stake.”

– Apostle M. Russell Ballard, “His Word Ye Shall Receive,” Ensign, May 2001, 65

This is very similar to how I used to think. I’ll do what you say because you tell me it’s right. It’s these kind of teachings that promote co-dependency. I feel I have been socialized this way by the same leaders who are supposed to be my spiritual conduit? How can we come to know God if we are following council like this?

[Author]

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