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I have been trying really hard at this one. At one point I had a co-dependent relationship with the Church. I believe that is now gone. It is difficult with the spouse mainly b/c of the husband/wife mantra of being “one”. I think DH still believes this way and I am seeing it different now. I no longer try to spoonfeed DH the answers that I think he will like when it comes to personal belief..in fact I’ve found that he really isn’t very interested, which really bothered me in the past but now it is a weight (that was probably never there) off of my shoulders, I speak my mind and it feels honest, when the time is right. Honesty feels freeing and amazing. I think godlives mentioned Jesus Christ. Honestly I have thought more than once that testimony meetings brought out a co-dependent vibe in regards to Jesus Christ and I guess that is ok for people to be like that. All I know is I take the atonement with symbolism and a teacher/student mentality. It isn’t about what Jesus can do for me anymore (I mean it is .. but that is a given to me and I need to move on). It is about what I can take from that lesson and give to other people. How can I better love and forgive people .. How can I better myself in regards to judgment and persecution..How can I take complete responsibility for myself and others actions (if near and dear) and still be a loving, charitable etc person. It is one of the healthy relationships I have and I’m lucky I never got sucked into a co-dependent relationship with God or Jesus Christ-at least not a unhealthy relationship.
Brian Johnston wrote:
So the Church might not be all true? *shrug* ok, whatever. I already thought people didn’t know what they were talking about half the time in Church, and I always felt compelled to ask the “wrong” questions and point out inconsistency. I’m still going to do my own thing.
😆 This is so me! But for some reason in this situation I didn’t take it like I would have taken it being my normal self. I went from independent to co-dependent (with the Church) back to independent. I feel like I’m me again. I can’t even imagine it for people that have been in the co-dependent relationship and nothing but .. You would have to be so strong!Thank you so much for this thread. I’m reading and learning. I’m reading and learning. This is all so new and so fascinating to me. LaLaLove wrote:I can’t even imagine it for people that have been in the co-dependent relationship and nothing but .. You would have to be so strong!
I think that this is what makes co-dependency with the church so tough. Most people wouldn’t even recognize it and, at a certain level, people are rewarded for being co-dependent. Sacrificing self is seen as ideal. But, the intention of the individual making the self-sacrifice is the key and if that self-sacrifice is made with the intention of getting approval from a church leader or a spouse, or gaining blessings from God, then it becomes a convoluted part of the co-dependent system.
And, we never get enough approval from those we seek it from and we either try harder or become resentful. Trying harder will lead to more expectations of approval and when that’s not met with more blessings, or approval, or “attaboys”, then again the end game is resentment. We’re keeping score. “Why am I the only one setting up chairs for sacrament meeting?” “Why can’t I get my VT partner to come with me every month?”
And, so it goes, we try hard to do “what we’re supposed to” and we start expecting everyone else to do the same. When I was in the stake ym’s presidency, I had to cover stake dances. I remember youth coming up to me and complaining that other youth were not meeting the dress standards of the dance. And they were resentful. At the time, I couldn’t figure out why they cared what others did but I came to recognize that as resentment that others weren’t being held up to the same standard that they felt they had to be held up to. But, it was individual. Sure, their parents or church leaders made them feel that that was the standard but then, when they saw others not live up to what they had built in their own minds as the standard, they had a negative reaction to it.
All of this without anyone meaning anything negative. Again, it’s just the co-dependent system of expectations that we have with all the other participants in the “system”. In this case, the church. We expect an ideal because we expect the ideal from ourselves. And, when we feel that we’re trying, we expect others to.
In my ward, there were alot of old timers complaining that the Aaronic priesthood boys that blessed and passed the sacrament didn’t “look the part”. Some had long hair, some liked to wear their pants as baggy as possible, etc. I’m sure we’ve all been there. So the bishopric and ym’s presidency issued an edict that all the boys passing the sacrament had to look like missionaries.
Most of the boys complied, but a few didn’t and, over the course of the next few months, they stopped participating as much and, in one case, stopped coming to church and decided to not go on a mission. I’m not saying that was right or wrong, maybe it helped some of the boys to be conscious of their image but, the long term effects on their relationship to the church, to God, and the co-dependent system that was reaching them, will have certain effects as they develop their own personal faith system/paradigm.
Swim – I totally understnd what you are saying and I recognize it now, outside looking in – I didn’t see it before I was baptized b/c I wanted it so bad that NOTHING mattered. I am grateful for the advantage (?) I had of being a convert at 18. Looking back I can actually see and almost pinpoint the time where I “gave” myself to the Church, in a way. I believe maybe at that time that it had to happen. My then boyfriend (DH) was Mormon, he was going on a mission soon and I knew darn well, from our many disscussions, that he wouldn’t follow through with me if I didn’t become a member. I had to believe to keep him. So I did it and I “leaned” on other peoples testimonies. Mainly I “leaned” on DH and the “testifiers” in his ward until I believed like they did – or at least like I had heard every Sunday. I was told more than once that “leaning” on others testimonies until you recieve your own was needed at times and even that it was “ok” or “right”. Looking back on this now I kind of think it was pretty stupid of me .. but love is blind among other strange complex mind processes.
I agree completely with your first paragraph. My “reward” personally was my soon to be DH … then the reward was looking the part and being accepted for it and trying to tell my family that the Church wasn’t “as weird as they thought it was”, then feeling like God loved me b/c I would obey. I also remember starting to be upset at other people who weren’t following the rules or at least being very curious of them … then five years later, with a struggle of faith .. I realized I slowly built up a co-dependent relationship .. and have been trying to pick up where I left myself five years ago. I feel like I can still have belief in the Church but it is completely different now and I think it is so so much healthier. I’m SO happy I’ve been through this. Better now than later.
I have no major input here, other than to say that I love this discussion! It is so important for church members — and everybody. Thanks Swim for starting it! 
LaLaLove wrote:I no longer try to spoonfeed DH the answers that I think he will like when it comes to personal belief..in fact I’ve found that he really isn’t very interested, which really bothered me in the past but now it is a weight (that was probably never there) off of my shoulders, I speak my mind and it feels honest, when the time is right. Honesty feels freeing and amazing.
I really loved this insight. And, it goes to the next really critical part of co-dependency: with a spouse.
After most of us have a disaffection with faith, the toughest part is often the relationship with our spouse. Obviously, they feel as if we’ve changed the rules. That we’re no longer the person we presented ourselves as being.
This is a false choice. We were a part of a co-dependent system and, as such, could not totally “be” ourselves. Like I said earlier, in the system we act, say, even think, in a way that supports the system. Not necessarily in the way that we truly think or feel. We hedge our thoughts and feelings so that we can look, seem and act the part. The part being that which gets approval, gets pats on the back from the bishop, or extra attention from the opposite sex.
After disaffection, the spouse may re-trench. They may go farther into the system, unconsciously trying to affect us. All of the tricks of the system will be deployed in an effort to put us “back on the straight and narrow”. Guilt, shame, fear, are the weapons of choice. “How can you do this to the kids?” “God must be so disappointed”. “How can we be an eternal family?”
On the one hand, it’s important to remember that your spouse is also acting and speaking from and for the system. They may not even believe this if they were hard-pressed. They have their own image to uphold and they have alot invested in this chosen lifestyle. And, on the other, you’ve been a part of the system for some time and, as you attempt to extract yourself, there will be push-back. Again, as anything, the system exists for it’s own survival as well.
What makes it so tricky in the mormon paradigm is, actually, at times, paradoxical. Divorce is essentially out of the equation in almost any situation, barring extreme abuse. And, yet, this is the one circumstance where it could be broached. This is real and must be conceded. However, in time, it is possible, if both spouses can be totally honest with each other, that the right decision will prevail. Life will teach us what is important for us to learn. But, we must be on a path of gaining and maintaining emotional health, to have the strength and insight to learn what is being taught.
How has everyone else dealt with their marital relationships in the face of your own disaffection?
swimordie wrote:How has everyone else dealt with their marital relationships in the face of your own disaffection?
I’ll make this short.First I would try to tell DH not to worry and that I still “believed” most things in the Church. Even though it was kind of true but not so true at the same time.
Then I tried to tell him my thoughts on a whole bunch of random things at once.
Then I tried to tell him he was racist and sexist and indoctrinated.
Then he started making jokes about being racist, sexist and indoctrinated and admitted to being at least indoctrinated.
I thought to be honest I had to tell DH all of my new views and where I think the Church is wrong or manipulating. – I had to share and naturally he had to “protect” the Church and his own beliefs – This is where arguments came from most of the time.
Now I would never lay out all of my beliefs in one swoop. My faith is detailed and unfinished and continually growing, changing and maturing.
I make it understood that I don’t “know” much about anything really, it’s about present and change not absolute ends of “truth”. I make it known that I am responsible for my thoughts and emotions – I still believe in God and I still believe in Jesus Christ, although my views on him have so much more depth and meaning now .. probably in a nontraditional way but I feel my views as being “good”.
Currently the few things we do talk about realting to “religion” are random things.
Sometimes I will ask him what the Church thinks about certain things. For example I honestly wanted to know what the Church thought about dinosaurs and evolution – He wasn’t sure what they thought (He doesn’t care I guess) .. and it seemed like from the things we found on lds.org that the Church, DH and I all agree that dinosaurs(of course) and evolution(in a way) were very possible .
It bothers me that DH doesn’t care to know much about what his own Church currently thinks or says about different subjects … or what they thought in the past but I need to get over it – I guess he is happy with what he hears at Church/GC and ummm thats it (Well he tells me he questions things all the time too! I don’t know about what or how far, but I know he does sometimes!) … I don’t understand it, it’s not how I work now. Well I do understand it ….. Hence the title of the thread .. but that is his deal … I admire his faith and obedience. We see things differently as we should.
My husband has been so supportive. At first he listened to me as I told him all the things I found out about the history and how mad I was. But a few months ago he said he didn’t want to hear any more negative things about the church. Listening to me, he started to have doubts also and I think it scared him. So I can’t really blame him. So now we have a different relationship. Still, sooo good but I keep a lot of thoughts deep inside that I use to share with him. He is such a good man and I would never want to hurt him. It’s hard. swimordie wrote:After disaffection, the spouse may re-trench. They may go farther into the system, unconsciously trying to affect us. All of the tricks of the system will be deployed in an effort to put us “back on the straight and narrow”. Guilt, shame, fear, are the weapons of choice. “How can you do this to the kids?” “God must be so disappointed”. “How can we be an eternal family?”
…How has everyone else dealt with their marital relationships in the face of your own disaffection?
My comments here may be discouraging for some, but it is/was my reality, and I think it might be helpful to a few.
What Swim described above is exactly what happened in my first marriage. She became completely immersed in church…it was her total support during a devastating time. Her worldview had been shattered, and the “church” had answers that explained why I had fallen off the deep end…and that allowed her to keep her approach to life. We tried for six years, with professional counseling, to keep the marriage together. It was all very worth the effort, as there was never regret that we didn’t do all we could.
The divorce was surprisingly freeing — probably for both of us. I could explore my new path, she didn’t have to keep trying to fix me (and I will admit, there was some of ‘me trying to fix her’ too…). It was lonely for both of us in the beginning, but that was a part of the mourning/healing that was needed. I’m quite sure I can say for her today, that it was the best thing that could have happened…she has found her new TBM husband, and I have found the perfect fit for me.
But I guess the bottom line point for me is that the divorce was necessary to get over the codependency. Yes, my “work” at the time included much training/learning about good mental health, and I learned how to detach from unhealthy relationships and be okay…but it was quite surprising to me after all I heard about the pain of divorce, how positive it ended up being for me.
But that may be only my experience….
I really appreciate the last three responses ( lala, peace, and rix) The underlying thread that runs through all three is a spouse who can’t reconcile the co-dependent system of the church with a marriage system that is transforming itself.
To be gentle, the TBM spouse is functioning in a paradigm that is built explicitly to reject concepts which may expose vulnerability. Certainty is generally the most cherished component of the paradigm. So, of course, when certainty is “attacked” there will be the strongest push-back, as certainty is the prize.
Often, the TBM spouse has simply never seen or experienced an alternative model. They may not even be able to imagine what a relationship looks like that does not follow the “proclamation to the world” standard. And, most significantly, they have an ideal in their mind, based on their faith paradigm, of what an “eternal marriage” is. Unity, “one mind”, self-sacrifice, etc. The idea of more than one “way”, is impossible to them, at some level. The ideal is, of course, an expectation. And with that expectation come strings attached.
It’s an unspoken quid pro quo: you play the part and, in exchange, I’ll play the part. So, in this way, a co-dependent system is built without a word ever spoken. And, as time passes, as expectations aren’t met, as resentment builds, as score-keeping intensifies, a power struggle ensues. Each spouse is fighting for a type of respect that will earn them the upper-hand in the system. The end game? Who even knows. At some point, each individual spouse may not even understand why they’re trying so hard, expending so much energy to gain the advantage… for what?
Again, it’s the system. It just perpetuates itself for the sake of survival. Because it was created out of unspoken thin air, it will continue, unabated and unrecognized. When the TBM spouse is re-trenching into their faith paradigm, they can often feel as if they are put in a corner. The fight-or-flight mentality may kick in and it can get ugly.
Like Rix said, every situation is different. One thing for sure, life will lead us along a path of learning, progress, peace, and joy… if we let it. Emotional health, self-love, and recovery from co-dependency are key.
I’m going to try to get my DW to write me an email about her perspective and post it here too. I think the perspective of the TBM spouse is important to understand why we each have to follow our own path.
If you wan’t to see Co-Dependence,Just look at your average R S Pres. I R’ One. My therapist once called me “The great _ _ _ in the sky” She also told me that I had to stop being that way but not till i had helped her with a few things. Sorry for the bad jokes. They are just a way of making my own problems seem not quite as scary. there are many groups of people including LDS who have these problems.
any kind of care-giver Nurses, Teachers, Counselors, Mothers and Fathers
I am glad for this thread, I hope it will help me do some more work on this issue. As I understand helping is ok but expecting specific responses is not. Does that sound right???
Konvert Kid wrote:As I understand helping is ok but expecting specific responses is not. Does that sound right???
From my perspective, that’s dead on.
Why did my parents push me to get my eagle scout when I was 13? From an ideal of help, nurturing, etc., if their intentions were correct, there’s nothing wrong with this. With the benefit of hindsight, I see it as much more complicated. Yes, they wanted me to “achieve” a certain thing, wanted me to push myself to maximize my potential. But, there was also a portion for them. They wanted to appear to be over-achieving parents. They felt the recognition and approval that I was getting and extended that to themselves.
If you’ve been to many scout awards ceremonies, often the mother is called up to get recognition for the accomplishments of the child because we all know that she was as responsible for it as the child was. Nothing wrong with that if the intentions are not misplaced. (Don’t get me started on pinewood derby
😳 )Again, it’s sensitive, complicated and, at a certain level, unknowable. If the mother is being completely honest with herself, she may recognize that she is “pushing” her child for a sense of her own approval, recognition, etc. Rarely are we humans that honest with ourselves. Which gets at the heart of why recognizing and overcoming these co-dependent tendencies is so, so, excruciatingly difficult.
Self-sacrifice, service, care-giving, etc. are all noble and important parts of the joy and happiness we can attain in this life. But, the intention of the person giving is what is key. That same joy and happiness will ultimately be sabotaged if the intention of the self-sacrifice, service, etc. comes with expectations: of approval, of appreciation, of recognition, of reciprocation.
In a transcendent faith paradigm, this is where the ideal of charity can best be experienced, explored and enacted. Charity out of love. Not for obedience. Not for exchange. Just from unconditional love. Anonymous charity would often feel this way. There is typically no chance for reciprocity. It’s just pure love.
Of course, that’s not possible in most situations in every day life but that type of mentality is attainable. In a marital relationship, it’s the opposite of score-keeping.
It may be important to recognize, without being resentful, that a TBM spouse is pushing back as much or more because of their own image. It really has nothing to do with us. It’s just made to feel like it’s us because we’re the one’s that are changing the unspoken agreement. But, ultimately, it’s a them thing. Again, we don’t have to be resentful for their issues, but we should recognize it for what it is. Not make it about us, even if they’re trying to make it about us. That’s just the system talking. It’s abstract but, it is what it is.
Swimordie, could you run by us again the key texts that might help us understand Codependency? Thanks Tom Haws wrote:Swimordie, could you run by us again the key texts that might help us understand Codependency?
Sorry, should have started with this. The book that everyone refers to is “Co-Dependent No More” by Melody Beattie. She had a great follow-up that was entitled “Beyond Co-Dependency”. Both books have combined for millions of print in circulation. They’re standard fare for most addiction groups.
My wife and I have taken to reading these books in similar ways to how the brethren have counseled reading the scriptures. I know it’s callous but it’s helped our marriage more than anything else, by far. We can discover what it is that is holding us back in our marriage and relationship and then work on ways to make it better. I know the scriptures can be great for our personal spiritual journey’s but the day to day maintenance of a marital relationship gets way beyond what the scriptures can afford. imho.
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