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I think the coffee thing will go away as mentioned before . For me it is silly because coffee is never mentioned and I think if the Lord had wanted it banned he would have said so. Besides it is not by commandment !!!! for me that is good enough. The WOW is all about moderation and exercise which many many members fall short of !!!! What about eating MEAT in MODERATION , yea we have other more important issues to worry about and I hope that comes off the banned list of items by the church. It’s interesting we have so many policies and rules around different kinds of teas and infusions. In the grand scheme of things, that seems silly to me. But it does show how strictly we hold on to the idea and try to put God into things that I can’t imagine matter. university wrote:However, I’ve heard that the policies about what types of tea are forbidden are strictly outlined for missionaries in Japan and Taiwan. From my interactions with returned missionaries from Asia, they have more knowledge about what types of teas are “forbidden” than even I do because of the strictness.
Personally, I find this sad. It even goes against modern day revealed scripture. It appears that we have a subconscious desire to be “commanded in all things” or to “command in all things,” maybe a little of both.
Heber13 wrote:It’s interesting we have so many policies and rules around different kinds of teas and infusions. In the grand scheme of things, that seems silly to me. But it does show how strictly we hold on to the idea and try to put God into things that I can’t imagine matter.
Just in case someone hasn’t seen this:
http://imgur.com/Vm1Tx2qhttp://imgur.com/Vm1Tx2q” class=”bbcode_url”> Some people would look at that and come away with the feeling that god cares about us despite our relative insignificance. In some cases it can elevate self esteem, make us feel important to something or someone.
That’s a big Jesus in that picture Nibbler – nice pic. Over the Christmas break I watched a series “how the universe works” or something close to that. It was really good and I enjoyed it quite a bit. It makes me want to dive into this a bit more as I find it very interesting just how much we have learned about the universe. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Members and missionaries in Japan drink mugicha (wheat tea) regularly – at least, those who want to drink it do. I didn’t like the taste. It was way too bland.
It wouldn’t surprise me if things changed in the future, but I would prefer a relaxation of the prohibition for baptism. We ought not require new converts to follow temple standards or be able to quit long-term addictions and abandon core cultural aspects in order to join the Church (especially, from an orthodox standpoint, without the Gift of the Holy Ghost).
nibbler wrote:
Personally, I find this sad. It even goes against modern day revealed scripture. It appears that we have a subconscious desire to be “commanded in all things” or to “command in all things,” maybe a little of both.I agree, but what do you mean by it going against modern day revealed scripture?
Heber13 wrote:It’s interesting we have so many policies and rules around different kinds of teas and infusions. In the grand scheme of things, that seems silly to me. But it does show how strictly we hold on to the idea and try to put God into things that I can’t imagine matter.
Yes, but I understand the mindset. I have a friend who, after returning home from a mission in Asia, won’t even eat anything flavored with green tea–this was a big problem for her mission in Asia, as that’s a very popular flavor for ice cream, etc (I’m not sure, but I also think this is a policy for her mission, as she’s also tried to prevent me from partaking in green tea flavored desserts when we go out to eat because she assumes I’m in the same paradigm as her). But I get it. She just wants to show her devotion to God and for her, even refraining from an ice cream flavor is a way of her showing her devotion. I don’t follow the same paradigm, but I can see the beauty in it.
Old-Timer wrote:Members and missionaries in Japan drink mugicha (wheat tea) regularly – at least, those who want to drink it do.
I didn’t like the taste. It was way too bland.
Yes, tea culture is really big in Asia. So big that even things that we wouldn’t classify as “tea” are referred to as such. For example, in some parts of China, chocolate milk is referred to as something along the lines as “chocolate milk tea” in Chinese. It’s my understanding that the current church policy for missionaries is that you can’t drink any “teas” that come from the tea leaf–black tea, green tea, etc., are off limits for the WOW. But you’re just fine to have other “teas” such as flower tea and others.
Old-Timer wrote:It wouldn’t surprise me if athings changed in the future, but I would prefer a relaxation of the prohibition for baptism. We ought not require new converts to follow temple standards or be able to quit long-term addictions and abandon core cultural aspects in order to join the Church (especially, from an orthodox standpoint, without the Gift of the Holy Ghost).
I feel similarly about our modesty requirements, although they aren’t a requirement for baptism (or are they?). It find it kind of culturally insensitive to impose Western-based standards of “modesty” on other cultures. For example, in India, sometimes the traditional saree would technically be “immodest” with exposure of some of the stomach. However, in my eyes, when I look at a mother wearing a saree, the idea that she’s somehow “immodest” is ridiculous to me. Similarly, in some parts of the world, there is no air conditioning, no access to ice, and people live in extremely hot and humid circumstances. Men walk around shirtless. Women show more skin but it’s not perceived as sexual at all–it’s normal. To impose Western-based modesty standards on the people there, when they’re already struggling with extreme heat, doesn’t feel right to me, either. I feel like this is a similar thing with how we implement the WOW. Sorry for the thread jack. I just see some similarities.
I do understand the mindset that people have with the Church that “where much is given much is required” where basically since the Church promises so much, it needs to demand a lot. But just because I understand doesn’t mean I ascribe to it. And this attitude can create unnecessary stress and pain for oneself and others.
Heber13 wrote:It wouldn’t surprise me if the church started de-emphasizing the coffee/tea thing, take it off the temple recommend list of questions, replace with true Word of Wisdom teachings such as exercise and moderation, and eventually it just fade in the background and go away as taboo in our tribe. The church doesn’t even have to say past prophets were wrong…simply…the Word of Wisdom is teaching us to be healthy and there are far greater things than coffee to worry about in today’s world.
In your dreams, Heber. I wish you were right, but if they took it off the list of temple recommend questions, it would send a strong message that it no longer matters. I don’t think they could merely “de-emphasize it.” I just don’t see that as working.Quote:It just seems to have become a test of obedience. There really isn’t much else to it that I can see.
I agree. And the test of obedience is a big, big deal. What bothers me is that we are given a certain amount of latitude with respect to most other doctrines. Even tithing. Bishops ask if you pay a full tithing, but we all know that some people pay on their net earnings and others on their gross. Both are acceptable and we are told that what we personally consider to be “a full tithing” is a matter between us and the Lord. I wish we could look at the Word of Wisdom the same way. When I’m asked if I obey the Word of Wisdom, I say “yes,” but I’m tempted to say, “I do to a greater degree than Joseph Smith did. Is that good enough?”Quote:“I do to a greater degree than Joseph Smith did. Is that good enough?”
– Like.
Another one. “Yep, just like Brigham Young.” #25 coffee per wagon was listed on the west ward trek manifest.
university wrote:I agree, but what do you mean by it going against modern day revealed scripture?
These are all personal applications of scripture, your mileage may vary.
Doctrine and Covenants 58:26-28 wrote:For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward. Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness; For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.
So this one may be a little out of context (it may be more about doing service without having to be asked to do service all the time) but I see the end goal of becoming agents unto ourselves as relevant. In some ways I see making a list of a few dozen types of teas, going one by one, and asking the lord permission for each a way that we seek to be commanded in all things. I can imagine god sitting peacefully on a cloud, people coming up and starting to bug him, “Can we drink black tea? Can we drink green tea? White tea? Oolong Tea? Matcha? Hibiscus? Rooibos? Green Rooibos? Pu-erh? Decaffeinated? …” God’s brow furrows a little more with each question until he says, “You know what. NO TEAS. No tea for you.” and then as soon as the room has cleared god lets out a sigh of relief and takes a dainty gulp from his earl gray.
Doctrine and Covenants 121:39 wrote:We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.
This addresses the part where I wonder whether the issue is that we want to be commanded in all things, want to command in all things, or a little of each. Does telling people what teas they can and can’t drink, down to every particular, border on exercising unrighteous dominion? Should that be a decision that is entirely between the individual and the lord? The revelation is limited to “hot drinks” and the interpretation can be worked out between the lord and the individual. Maybe the lord’s deal was the actual temperature of the liquid and not the liquid itself, like anything north of 160 degrees and you run the risk of internal scalding, and that’s not wise. That interpretation is off the table, we have nice leaders that tell us what it means, to help us become agents unto ourselves and all that.
Let’s say we introduce ourselves to a new culture and they drink a particular type of tea. The culture suffers no ill effects, the teas are not hallucinogenic, they don’t impair judgment, etc., etc. but we feel the need to vet it past a leader to see if it’s okay. Sigh.
James 1:5 wrote:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Yes, I’m going to the granddaddy of LDS scriptures. Perhaps this is my more disaffected side talking but who does the scripture say to ask when there is a lack of wisdom? The bishop? The stake president? A visiting area authority? A handbook? We ask god… and right now he’s in a “NO TEAS” mood.
But seriously, going to a leader for every particular feels like it goes against the goal of personal progress. Are we not meant to wean ourselves from needing a leader to tell us the will of god, to begin to walk in our own confidence before the lord? That said, we can certainly arrive at a place where we no longer keep
churchstandards but that’s not always the same thing as godsstandards. Moderation in all things, a sip of tea, even chamomile, isn’t gonna kill us – temporally or spiritually. For the record, I’m 100% compliant with the WoW as presently interpreted by church leaders. My choice.
Heber13 wrote:That’s a big Jesus in that picture
Perhaps it’s time to update the song from “He’s got the whole world in his hands…” to “He’s got the whole visible universe from the perspective of the Earth in his hands…”
It is worth pointing out here that I have never been asked if I drink coffee, tea, or alcohol in a TR interview. I have only been asked if I live the WoW. The garment question actually bugs me a lot more because it does go beyond the “do you wear the garment….: amateurparent wrote:Minyan Man:
Yerba Mate is absolutely a heavily caffienated tea. Most of the missionaries in Southern Brazil and Northern Argentina were drinking it when I was down there as a teenager. The active members of my ward/stake didn’t drink it. They considered it against the WOW. It almost looked like the church gave it a pass in order to convert more people.
I’ve wondered if missionaries drink tea in Japon and China .. As it is such a social standard. Anyone know?
My son recently returned from Chile and most missionaries and almost all members did drink mate. His MP was known to indulge as well.
DarkJedi wrote:It is worth pointing out here that I have never been asked if I drink coffee, tea, or alcohol in a TR interview. I have only been asked if I live the WoW. The garment question actually bugs me a lot more because it does go beyond the “do you wear the garment….:
Same. However I believe missionaries ask about WoW specifics like coffee, tea in baptism interviews.
Roadrunner wrote:DarkJedi wrote:It is worth pointing out here that I have never been asked if I drink coffee, tea, or alcohol in a TR interview. I have only been asked if I live the WoW. The garment question actually bugs me a lot more because it does go beyond the “do you wear the garment….:
Same. However I believe missionaries ask about WoW specifics like coffee, tea in baptism interviews.
The AP in my mission also asked me if I ate coffee cake…because apparently to him, we should be more faithful by avoiding all appearances of evil, and that included cake named after the evil elixir. I laughed at him (I really did think he was joking…but he wasn’t…he was just dumb).
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