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I read this article the other day [link to anti-Mormon site deleted] and it made me realize why so many of us had/have Cognitive Dissonance in the church. What I grew up hearing, “Think for yourself.” “If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.” – President J. Reuben Clark – and that a religion that cannot stand up to scrutiny, has a weak foundation (don’t know who said that) as well as what the first quotes the article brings out.
I grew up with this kind of talk and with convert parents who taught me to question, challenge, and investigate to know the truth. Then the last 30 years the church became like the 2nd quotes in the article: “Do what I say.”
How do you come to terms with this?
Hi Bridget I think the TBM way to solve this dichotomy would be to decide for your self that Mormonism is where you want to be. We are each volunteers and we voluntarily give of our time and money to this cause. We also voluntarily submit (to a greater or lesser extent) to the authority of the church to direct things.
My personal answer? There are some scripture verses that I love and believe in. There are some that I believe to be less inspired and pretty much ignore. It took me some time to get used to the idea that every word of canonized scripture is not necessarily “God’s holy word.” I apply my own personal compass. It becomes much easier to do the same with quotes from church leaders.
In primary we are singing a song about following the prophet in every word that they say. That is one of the things that I consider less inspired.
Thanks Roy….One of the difficult things for me to realize was how falliable the prophet and leaders of the church can be. As I read things early leaders had said and done that most of us would get excommunicated for today, I was shocked. From this article, it sounds like the GA’s and prophet are exempt from criticism or being called out. [Hyperbolic comparison deleted] I do understand minor criticisms and nit picking, but if I see a leader breaking the law or doing something really wrong (like priests in the catholic church did to kids) I will speak out. I hate cover ups, just to protect the good name of the church. I was never afraid to study, research, and learn about the church because I believed it had nothing to hide and was God’s one true church. I have no problem even with learning that my leaders had weaknesses or grievous sins but not to get a pass for them or do a cover up. So often I felt muzzled or rejected for asking questions at church. People knew I loved the church and had a strong testimony when I taught Gospel Doctrine 4 years, and Investigator class 4 years and in RS 8 years besides serve a mission. People loved coming to my classes because I would relate the gospel to their real lives with humor and compassion. Suddenly, I was told I could no longer use any outside sources to teach my lessons (only the 4 standard works and the Ensign). When I told them that GA’s quote Billy Graham and Mother Theresa and use outside resourses all the time, I was told that they are special and can do that. I asked them about the 13th article of faith which says that anything that is of good report or newsworthy, etc we should seek after and again I was just commanded to obey the new rule by the stake president. Well, I stepped down then because I felt I could no longer be myself and teach lessons by the spirit. It just pains me still at times that this is not the church I was brought up in.
I am with you on the cultural changes Bridget. I really am confused by the extent of the changes, too. I look back to my youth and wonder what happened to that church. It’s more than correlation or meetings – it’s lost an inspiration it once had. When I was a teen a huge part of our lessons were on finding your God given mission. My Patriarchal Blessing even uses the phrase, “it is your mission in this life….”. I remember the idea that God had a life plan for me, a unique place where I would plant my little garden of Godliness excited me. I decorated my room with quotes and posters about discovering the inner me, etc. These were not church created posters – they were uplifting quotes from Mother Teresa or some other inspired person – Walt Whitman, etc. Today I listen as the Young Women get up and tell their personal progress completions and I want to cry. Everyone read the same Ensign article, filled in the same page of the book, and that’s it. Where is the fire, the diversity, the divine? I could scream.
I used to give talks all the time, I was in all the leadership – ward and stake. My words were well received, people would stay after and ask questions, other wards invited me to speak. Now – nothing. I was never told anything, but I listen to the Sunday repeats and realize, they will just move past me. That era has gone, at least for a while. It’s head pops up now and then, but as an organization, especially here in the U.S. we are a follow along crowd or be quiet. I miss our fire and enthusiasm.
bridget_night wrote:As I read things early leaders had said and done that most of us would get excommunicated for today, I was shocked.
While I am unsure of the specifics, I too was uncomfortable with some of the things done by certain early church leaders. The whole thing was a lot messier than I had thought and if God can continue to work with such flawed individuals then He has a pretty high tolerance. Maybe He is more forgiving than we have previosly understood.
The good news is that I don’t see this today. One may complain about not having any new revelations to speak of but I don’t know of any carousing and law breaking. I don’t think the moden church hierarchy does cover-ups. I believe them to be as squeeky clean as a non-transparent organization can be.
bridget_night wrote:It just pains me still at times that this is not the church I was brought up in.
I don’t know exactly what you mean by this. Is it not the church as you had imagined it to be growing up or has it actually changed in ways that you do not like?
I know correlation has made some annoying limitations but that can be a double edged sword as it also clamps down on all the “3 nephites told my uncle to get his food storage up to date” speculative lessons.
I feel like the church is growing up and becoming more mainstream and inclusive. Admittedly we have a long way to go and it can be a slow process, but I see steady movement in the right direction.
The movement can be much too slow for some and I can understand that some just can’t spend their lives waiting (your son’s situation being a good example).
I work to be the change I would like to see in my small part of the garden. The 4 year olds that I team teach with DW in primary know that God loves them no matter what. Last Sunday we didn’t get through the lesson because the kids wanted to make so many comments. Perhaps 4 year olds don’t get enough people to listen to them… perhaps being listened to and validated was more valuable to them than any lesson could ever be.
:thumbup: bridget_night wrote:Suddenly, I was told I could no longer use any outside sources to teach my lessons (only the 4 standard works and the Ensign). When I told them that GA’s quote Billy Graham and Mother Theresa and use outside resourses all the time, I was told that they are special and can do that. I asked them about the 13th article of faith which says that anything that is of good report or newsworthy, etc we should seek after and again I was just commanded to obey the new rule by the stake president. Well, I stepped down then because I felt I could no longer be myself and teach lessons by the spirit. It just pains me still at times that this is not the church I was brought up in.
I think this came from higher up than stake presidents since it seems to be prevalent in several areas.
mom3 wrote:I am with you on the cultural changes Bridget. I really am confused by the extent of the changes, too. I look back to my youth and wonder what happened to that church. It’s more than correlation or meetings – it’s lost an inspiration it once had.
I used to give talks all the time, I was in all the leadership – ward and stake. My words were well received, people would stay after and ask questions, other wards invited me to speak. Now – nothing. I was never told anything, but I listen to the Sunday repeats and realize, they will just move past me. That era has gone, at least for a while. It’s head pops up now and then, but as an organization, especially here in the U.S. we are a follow along crowd or be quiet. I miss our fire and enthusiasm.
I am right there with both of you. I wonder if the women notice this change more due to the discarding of RS curriculum unique to the sisters? I also wonder if the GA’s ever meant it to go so far or if it is an example of suggested changes coming down the line and each level piles on more and more requirements around the suggested change. Whatever is behind it, I think the spirit is being driven out of the church in many ways and I miss sacrament meetings talks and RS lessons that are more personable to the application of the gospel in the person’s life.
Quote:I am right there with both of you. I wonder if the women notice this change more due to the discarding of RS curriculum unique to the sisters? I also wonder if the GA’s ever meant it to go so far or if it is an example of suggested changes coming down the line and each level piles on more and more requirements around the suggested change. Whatever is behind it, I think the spirit is being driven out of the church in many ways and I miss sacrament meetings talks and RS lessons that are more personable to the application of the gospel in the person’s life.
Amen, and Amen. Afterall – I think you hit the nail on the head.
Sometimes the water never gets to the end of certain rows – but sometimes it floods other rows. Iow, what afterall said – in more ways than just this example.
Thank you so much for all your comments. It is good to have people who really understand and others to give us perspective. This past week I listened to a couple of Grant Palmer podcasts and bio videos. I really respect and like him. BUT, now I am in shock again about Joseph Smith and feel some anger and frustration. How did any of you come to terms with this kind of information? bridget_night wrote:Thank you so much for all your comments. It is good to have people who really understand and others to give us perspective. This past week I listened to a couple of Grant Palmer podcasts and bio videos. I really respect and like him. BUT, now I am in shock again about Joseph Smith and feel some anger and frustration. How did any of you come to terms with this kind of information?
I’m afraid you’re going to have to be more specific.
Specifically, the info I got from Grant Palmer podcasts about how JS was with William Law and his wife, the blood atonement thing where JS had Porter Rockwell, and Jackson (I believe) try to kill Boggs and others. JS and Emma and suducing girls and women, even married ones. Perhaps JS was a very flawed individual that did some very bad things to match the very good things that we believe he did. Ray has mentioned the prophecy about both good and ill being said about JS. Maybe that is because both good & ill is true. Maybe God will not cast us off as quickly as we had thought. He seems to have been extrordinarilly patience with the mission, progress, & foibles of JS.
If God exists and He is truly “no respecter of persons,” I expect that nearly the entirety of the human family to be saved/exalted.
That maybe true Roy, but when you see good lds people like Palmer, etc. being disfellowed and excommunicated for such minor matters in comparison to what JS did, it bothers me. I truly believe he was a fallen prophet that God had to take out finally. I agree with what Roy said. For me, I believe JS had a profound spiritual experience in Palmyra – I do believe he had a vision and thus was a prophet. And while the church was not perfect as he organized it, it’s not perfect now, either. In regards to the church I think he did what he thought was right, which apparently included him making up all kinds of stuff (most of which I don’t believe). He was clearly a flawed individual, perhaps more so than average, but I have many flaws myself. I actually see hope in JS because If God can forgive him, he can certainly forgive me, and JS was not the only seriously flawed prophet in old or new times. Whether one likes or agrees with the church or not, it cannot be said that the church does not teach and do good – our basic gospel (the two great commandments and the doctrine of Christ) is the same as virtually every other Christian church. As to Palmer’s disfellowshipment and resignation, the church is not God. Where Palmer, and anyone else, stand with God is between the individual and God. There are many of us here and on other sites (or no sites at all) who believe similarly to Palmer – perhaps we’re just wise enough to know when to shut up and whom to share what with. I think particularly of late the church has made it clear that we can believe what we want to believe and they don’t care – attempting to convert others to our beliefs is a different matter.
DarkJedi wrote:As to Palmer’s disfellowshipment and resignation, the church is not God. Where Palmer, and anyone else, stand with God is between the individual and God. There are many of us here and on other sites (or no sites at all) who believe similarly to Palmer – perhaps we’re just wise enough to know when to shut up and whom to share what with. I think particularly of late the church has made it clear that we can believe what we want to believe and they don’t care – attempting to convert others to our beliefs is a different matter.
I agree with this. What is the relation between what happens in the church (baptisms, sealings, & excommunications) & how each one of us is viewed by our Heavenly Father? I do not believe that there is any relation. I believe that to the degree that these things might help us grow into our ultimate selves, God supports them. To the degree that these might hinder our growth, God does not support them. Our church attempts to approximate and systematize the divine but it is merely a model. A model that points to something greater that it could never hope to fully represent. I came to this conclusion in looking at excommunications that were at least partially politically motivated. I can’t imagine that God would be bound (even temporarily) by such flawed proceedings.
Yes, there is a disconnect between the perfectionism that is now taught in the church and the behavior of JS. I have resolved this because I do not believe in perfectionism. I believe that JS was way over the line of what is appropriate in some of his actions. I believe that the modern church is way extreme in living the Mormon lifestyle as substitute for being sinless. Neither is fully right. But then that is life – Making the best of incomplete information, bureaucratic institutions, and flawed individuals.
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