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Come Back Podcast https://www.comebackpodcast.org/ I am not much of a podcast person. I did come across this podcast while reading up on the LDS purchase of the Kirtland Temple on Deseret News.
https://www.deseret.com/2024/2/26/24059906/do-latter-day-saints-come-back-to-church/ Both of the leaders of the podcast (podcasters Ashly Stone and Lauren Rose) seem to have gone through a young adult period of rebellion and partying and then returned to church. They want to share their stories and provide space for others to share their reconversion stories.
I have looked at a number of the “quick blurb” descriptions of the podcast episodes and I have been particularly interested by those that left after “being exposed to anti literature” or discovering “challenges with church history” or anything LGBTQ related.
In general, the return or reconversion individuals feel drawn to return to the church. They either have spiritual experiences, or feel a sense of belonging that was missing outside the church, or just see the “fruit” of good clean living and family happiness in their lives.
I don’t feel that any answers to burning questions are provided but rather that some people are able to shift their focus in a way that the unanswered questions don’t seem so important anymore. Some feel that this in itself is an answer from God.
I am happy for them to share these stories and have another “voice” in the internet space that seem so full of LDS departure stories right now.
P.S. the Deseret news article shares some statistics on the percentages of people that leave church and then return.
Quote:“Contrary to the presumption that “once you leave, you don’t come back,” professor Sam Hardy at Brigham Young University points to three different datasets that suggest a significant subset of people who leave do come back.”
I am fairly incredulous of these stats partly because none of them are following LDS church members specifically. One study followed US adults and another US teens. The studies also repeatedly used the phrase “stepping away” or “stepped away” from religion. I’m not convinced that the percentages of non-LDS people that return to church attendance after “stepping away” has significant transferability on LDS populations. This feels like comparing apples and oranges to me and seems misleading. I assume that the percentage of LDS people that return to the LDS church after having their name removed or after being excommunicated is very small. I also assume that the Deseret news would not want to include those stats in their story. Statistics are useful and also easily manipulated.
I have peripherally given this topic some thought. 1.
Observed Change in Direction– In order to “come back” to a person, place, or concept/thing – you have “leave” it first AND an outside force has to observe that change in direction. This was something I wrestled with for a period of time as my testimony-bearing husband rarely attended church, and I was physically present, but mentally not so much.
– My husband got the censure/raised eye brows from “active” individuals who lamented his participation level (mostly behind his back). To be fair, my husband vocalized intent to become more “active” – so it wasn’t exactly gossiping or the like.
– Most people saw the “faithful one” in me (because I showed up and helped), but were preserved from my doubts and lack of testimony.
2.
Meaningful Narrative– As I was vastly decreasing my activity in the church, I made time to talk to the leaders and friends that I was serving under to provide my perspective and a helpful script/general narrative that I wanted them to have on hand in case anyone asked them about our situation. I knew that our family would come up in council meetings – and that my friends attended council meetings. I figured the least I could do was recommend to our friends what we would want to be known. 3.
Meaningful Aspect of Identity– The church doctrine and church culture provided a lot of framework and support that I grew up in. I didn’t expect to the be one “leaving”, I didn’t expect that both the church doctrine and church culture would be such a poor fit for my oldest that would draw me into this situation. The worst part of the experience is that on some level, all of us were “killing her with kindness” – and the COVID shutdown may have been “the act of God” our family needed to stop that process. I’ve finally gotten some time to listen to some of the podcasts. Several were of individuals that had left the church as children or teens and then rediscovered it later in life. This is a reminder for me that many (perhaps the majority) of the people that leave the church just have life changes that make them become inactive or not identify as a member of the church and if sometime later they are reintroduced to the church then that is a form of “coming back.” I think that I have become so versed in faith crises that I interpret things through that lens and I think, “well they didn’t really leave the church” but I can step back and let them have their story and be ok with that. After listening to parts of several podcasts I finally found one that was more applicable to the experience of faith crisis that we discuss here at StayLDS (she even referenced the “dark night of the soul).
Elise had a faith crisis and stopped wearing garments. Her husband was a true believer but also did not attend church during this time. They didn’t seem to talk about it or want to listen to each other’s perspectives. Eventually the spouses drift apart until the marriage is hanging by a thread. Elise decides to pray and receives a spiritual response that started her on the journey back. In Elise’s words:
Quote:I’m built upon a rock, I’m built upon the Savior. I never got a lot of answers to all of the crap that I read…I never did get a lot of answers, I did get a relationship with the Savior and I knew that he was there and I got the spirit back…slowly now I’m gotten the answers that I’ve needed…All of the sudden I softened and I remember the questions that I had, I just felt peace. I felt ok.
On Joseph Smith:
Quote:I didn’t know that he was a prophet yet but I gave him the grace that the atonement gave me when I fell to my knees. It was like, “he’s a human.” Whether he was perfect – he was an imperfect human I’m sure and I just gave him this grace and that was the first step.
On the BoM:
Quote:As I kept reading it I’m like, “It’s teaching me about the Savior,” who cares about the horse, you know the anti-Mormon stuff that teaches about the histor, you know I don’t care anymore because I felt the spirit.
Husband and wife attend couples therapy and husband finally listens to something called the 12 problems of Mormonism (or something like that) in an effort to meet his wife halfway. Afterwards he bore his testimony of the Savior and said “I don’t know the answers to all of those things but I do know…”
Elise says that she understands people that have left the church and will think to themselves that they could never go back and “All evidence proves that it wasn’t true” but to Elsie “There are miracles… trust and stay humble. I get more and more answers and I know I am where I am supposed to be.”
The interviewer, Ashley Stone, said:
Quote:I do hear that a lot. You still don’t have these concrete answers to some of these things…It’s true that you don’t always receive “this is the answer to this” but a heavenly answer to an earnest question will satisfy that need in your heart to answer that question.
I find it interesting to hear Elise’s departure and return story. I too felt a spiritual response/heavenly answer in my moment of deep anguish. It was a feeling of deep peace, love, and acceptance and I trusted in it and I built upon it afterwards. In a way, we both got what we needed. I was grieving my stillborn daughter but was also deeply wrestling with the idea that I had failed her. My answer let me know that I am known and accepted and loved without having to do anything or despite anything that I have done. I am equally loved as my stillborn daughter. Remember that we teach that little children that die before 8 are so advanced that they don’t need to be tested and just come for a body so the idea that she and I are equal in God’s eyes was pretty shocking. I built upon that feeling and it validated and led me to further question the teachings of the church (especially around shaming and worthiness). I do remember wondering what might have happened if I had been surrounded by wonderful LDS support at the time how things might have been different. Maybe I would have had an experience that I interpreted differently or maybe I would have felt comfort and peace enough in the teachings and doctrines of the church that I might never have gotten to the point of despair and desperation that preceded my spiritual experience in the first place.
For Elise, I speculate that she was at the end of her rope and about to lose her marriage. She prayed to God and felt a spiritual response that she trusted in and built upon and that gave her a lifeline. Her story and my story diverge but I honor and respect her interpretation and the meanings that she has given to her experiences. I wish nothing but success and happiness to her and her family. I might see gaps and leaps of logic/faith in her assumptive reality but I’m sure that I have those too.
Anyway, I think that I now have a better understanding of what it might look like for someone to have a faith crisis and then return to something that looks similar to their former faith.
I’m glad there’s a wider spectrum of stories out there being shared. One thing that I struggle with is that those types of stories often imply that coming back it the correct or more righteous decision. That’s not always true but it’s completely understandable how believers would frame these kind of journeys that way.
I just like to see people become happier regardless of where their journey takes them. If a journey with roasted brussels sprouts at the end of it makes you happy, more power to you.
nibbler wrote:
I’m glad there’s a wider spectrum of stories out there being shared.One thing that I struggle with is that those types of stories often imply that coming back it the correct or more righteous decision. That’s not always true but it’s completely understandable how believers would frame these kind of journeys that way.
Humans like concrete, action stories. The “story that I left and learned some stuff that isn’t easily relatable to you and kept going” doesn’t have nice resounding ground conclusion.
nibbler wrote:
I just like to see people become happier regardless of where their journey takes them. If a journey with roasted brussels sprouts at the end of it makes you happy, more power to you.
Roy wrote:
Anyway, I think that I now have a better understanding of what it might look like for someone to have a faith crisis and then return to something that looks similar to their former faith.
Fowler’s Stages of Belief Model has wording that describes that scenario in Stage 5 or Stage 6. I “came back to” the RS motto “Charity Never Faileth” as part of my reconstruction process. I think the main point is “coming back” to something, to cycling back to a theme with greater depth, a different approach and understanding. In a sense, “reclaiming” something the way that a person restores furniture from the dumpster or a thrift store and “owns it” as meaningful/valuable/useful to them.
AmyJ wrote:
nibbler wrote:
I’m glad there’s a wider spectrum of stories out there being shared.One thing that I struggle with is that those types of stories often imply that coming back it the correct or more righteous decision. That’s not always true but it’s completely understandable how believers would frame these kind of journeys that way.
Humans like concrete, action stories. The “story that I left and learned some stuff that isn’t easily relatable to you and kept going” doesn’t have nice resounding ground conclusion.
One of the things that Elise said is that once you leave the church, many people will read more and more anti stuff or surround themselves with others that have left the church to help validate their choice and decision to leave as the right one. There is probably some truth to that. While I have not left the church, I know that finding StayLDS and knowing that I wasn’t alone, or crazy, or being tricked by Satan was such a relief.
I also feel that the same is true of more TBM LDS people that they enjoy reading material and surrounding themselves with people that validate and confirm that they are correct to stay and maintain the course.
I wouldn’t mind at all if these “Come Back Podcast” stories are used by people to validate their decision to stay. “See! They left the church and found out that the grass was not greener on the other side. I should stay where I am.” What would really bother me is if friends and family of people who are leaving or have left might use these stories as proof that the loved one should and could come back – if only they softened their heart to the spirit.
Roy wrote:
AmyJ wrote:
nibbler wrote:
I’m glad there’s a wider spectrum of stories out there being shared.One thing that I struggle with is that those types of stories often imply that coming back it the correct or more righteous decision. That’s not always true but it’s completely understandable how believers would frame these kind of journeys that way.
Humans like concrete, action stories. The “story that I left and learned some stuff that isn’t easily relatable to you and kept going” doesn’t have nice resounding ground conclusion.
One of the things that Elise said is that once you leave the church, many people will read more and more anti stuff or surround themselves with others that have left the church to help validate their choice and decision to leave as the right one. There is probably some truth to that. While I have not left the church, I know that finding StayLDS and knowing that I wasn’t alone, or crazy, or being tricked by Satan was such a relief.
I also feel that the same is true of more TBM LDS people that they enjoy reading material and surrounding themselves with people that validate and confirm that they are correct to stay and maintain the course.
I wouldn’t mind at all if these “Come Back Podcast” stories are used by people to validate their decision to stay. “See! They left the church and found out that the grass was not greener on the other side. I should stay where I am.” What would really bother me is if friends and family of people who are leaving or have left might use these stories as proof that the loved one should and could come back – if only they softened their heart to the spirit.
I am not fond of the “If Only…” narrative. I found myself doing that and I hated myself for that sometimes.
I found that when I am hearing “If Only…” in my head (from myself or someone else), it means that there is an expectation to be stated and mourned, and an opportunity to “change the narrative” – whether the definition framework or make actual changes. I usually look at the source of the expectation (theirs or mine – and if mine, what is it I really want/expect?) in the process. Sometimes I agree with the person, “If only I could see something that way, had the capacity to follow that process… that would be nice AND…”
We make judgement calls the time on “Doesn’t/Won’t/Can’t” – but they have drastically different outcomes.
A person:
- “Doesn’t” do something means it’s not an observed habits.
- “Can’t” do something is a physical statement, or a mental belief statement “sticking” that individual.
- “Won’t” do something implies willful consideration, and that “the right thing is to do the thing” (a moral judgement).
I find that I spent a lot of time with my family sitting with them as their convert their “can’t” to “Doesn’t (or Does)” in informed decision-making. I don’t have emotional energy to spare getting all “preachy” about their “Won’t” stances. Generally it comes up when my teenager or grade schooler wants to foment a “won’t rebellion” – which I do not authorize them to do by converting their “won’t” into an actionable decision tree.
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