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A person at FAIR suggested I check out this site. Just by way of introduction, I have posted what I did over there, because basically I am lazy and what I wrote says most of it. For the last few years I have been an antagonist of the Church. Always searching for and finding fault with many things in the history of the Church. However, recently I must admit despite knowing the things I do about Church history, I have not been really HAPPY. I have been mostly a miserable wretch. When I discovered that the church was FALSE, a few years ago, I was in so much despair that I contemplated committing suicide, because, what was the point to my life now, if all the things that I had been raised to believe were false?
What was the point of it all? What was the purpose of life. So I spent much of my time after discovering this ‘knowledge’ about the Church to find ways to try and tear it down and make a mockery of it. I was so bitter from what I had lost. I had at many times contemplated removing my name from the records of the Church, because I was so mad and bitter about the things from the past.
But what had the Church done personally to me? Had they done any great sin to me that would lead me into some evil, or set a trap for me that would affect my physical and mental well being? To be honest, no they didn’t. When my house was damaged, it was members who came to my aide.
Often the Church is referred to as the Church of Joseph Smith of Latter-Day Saints who don’t believe in the Church any more.
Yesterday in my cynical view I was going to read through the Ensign from the last conference to see how much dirt I could find about ‘following the prophet’ to show how the Church is a CULT, in the evil sense that it would ask you to drink the Kool-Aid or do a Jim Jones type thing.
As I read I found much testifying of Christ and admonishing a person to live a better life. I never did stop believing in Christ, though through it all I did have some doubts and was leaning towards agnosticism, neither accepting or denying the existence of God. I figured when I died I would find out.
So as I am reading the last conference Ensign, I am thinking…’Well that makes sense.’, or ‘I agree with that.’ or ‘that’s good advice’, or ‘that’s something I should be doing.’ I was thinking wow, I FEEL something here that I haven’t felt since the beginning of my marriage when I was active. I feel PEACE in my thoughts. I feel that everything will be okay. I feel that there is some purpose to the world, some order
I have tried to find joy in tearing people of the faith down and kicking them while they are down. I have said that the General Authorities are EVIL men who know they are EVIL, who know that they are duping the members for MONEY and POWER. In reading the Ensign and in listening to conference today though, I did not sense that they were PURPOSELY trying to stab the members in the back and make them grovel at their feet, or trying to HURT us. These men do care about us. I may not agree with everything they say, but they mean well.
I was especially touched by the talk today by Oaks on service. On losing ourselves we will find happiness in the service of others. Many times I think about ME first. How can this benefit me the most. I put self first, sometimes even at the expense of my own family, which I know I shouldn’t. I have been so cruel to my dear wife who has stayed faithful in her beliefs and also mocked her, while she as pleaded with me to be one with her in the gospel. I am lucky she has not left me, like so often happens in situations where one loses the faith.
So I do know quite a bit about Church history. Some of it makes me shudder, but I think that there is probably a lot of exaggeration and hyperbole on both sides of the equation.
Probably to nonbelievers reading this, they think ‘wow, what a weak and feeble minded fool.’ for reconsidering their position and testimony in the Church.
However, when I consider my feelings about the things I have learned and my actions, I know I feel purpose when I follow the teachings of Jesus, and a lack of reason and purpose when I go the other direction. Sure mocking things CAN be fun. I have had lot’s of laughs, but no real joy or higher purpose from it.
So I guess I don’t KNOW if the Church is the ONLY TRUE AND LIVING CHURCH ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH, but I do know how much better I feel about life when I am doing the things I did as a believer vs. what I did as an apostate antagonist.
Lizarian, welcome. I always as fascinated to read accounts like yours, since I also believe strongly that “living the Gospel” is FAR more important than “understanding the Truth”. It’s good to have you here; I hope you are better off somehow in the end for talking with us.
Lizarian, welcome. I feel much the same way – I definitely had a dark time where I was wishing people a merry Smithmas all the time. I think being willing to honestly reconsider one’s beliefs and to do the best that one can is the highest calling one can have and is no sign of weakness. I hope your journey gets you where you need to be. Welcome to the site, Lizarian. I really appreciate what you say about the ‘feeling’ of goodness. So many get caught up in the intellectual side (easy to do for a smart person) and lose the sensitivity of how they really feel.
I believe people are truly, deeply enmeshed in the duality of this mortal existence. We all know of the oppositional role of ‘Justice’ versus ‘Mercy’, that’s discussed in the Church and scriptures. The duality or opposition between ‘feelings’ and ‘thoughts’, though, are not so commonly expressed. In the Jewish mystical tradition, the feeling capacity is spiritually on a higher plain than the intellectual, because feelings more easily convey the sense of god or godliness. Of course they can also do the opposite when we feel bitterness or anger.
My view is that these feelings drive our thoughts, and not the other way around. Nevertheless, Balance (Atonement) is possible. I see you as regaining that balance, and hope you continue to seek not only for truth, but also for peace and love.
Again, welcome.
HiJolly
Hi Lizarian, Welcome to the forums. Your story was really interesting. I’m impressed with your passion combined with your ability to be brutally honest with yourself. That last part is so critical in my opinion. To acknowledge and understand what you are doing and what that creates inside, that is true personal power. I like to see all these things as very practical. If it makes me feel good, or be good, then it *is* good. I am not arguing exclusive Truth. If it works, use it. That is how I like to process things. If it doesn’t work … same deal.
Lizarian wrote:But what had the Church done personally to me? Had they done any great sin to me that would lead me into some evil, or set a trap for me that would affect my physical and mental well being? To be honest, no they didn’t. When my house was damaged, it was members who came to my aide.
I went through a similar thought pattern. The Church (or religion in general) doesn’t make sense. *BUT* the practice of religion has in fact made me a better, happier person. I like who I am (which wasn’t always the case). It shouldn’t work, but it did. It only works if I believe. Go figure… welcome to the paradox
Quote:So I do know quite a bit about Church history. Some of it makes me shudder, but I think that there is probably a lot of exaggeration and hyperbole on both sides of the equation.
History just is what it is, as best as we can figure it out. We however are the ones who decide how to interpret it and act in relation to the stories.
Quote:Probably to nonbelievers reading this, they think ‘wow, what a weak and feeble minded fool.’ for reconsidering their position and testimony in the Church.
I highly recommend you listen to the podcast interview on James Fowler’s Psychological Stages of Faith. It is in the LIBRARY section of the website here. The statement above is a classic Stage 4 viewpoint of a person in Stage 5 faith. Yes, you (and the rest of us) will appear as “sell-outs” or weak to the people still firmly in the trenches of their Stage 4 faith deconstruction. The reverse is also generally true — those people still being angry, frustrated and too focused on the literal seem tiresome after while. Yeah, we get it. There are a lot of problems in the world and in the Church. Can we move on now and get something done about it?
Quote:So I guess I don’t KNOW if the Church is the ONLY TRUE AND LIVING CHURCH ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH, but I do know how much better I feel about life when I am doing the things I did as a believer vs. what I did as an apostate antagonist.
That is the grand paradox of religion. Welcome to club. Welcome to owning your own beliefs completely, with eyes wide open. They are yours now. You can have what you want because it works, and you can reject what you want. You don’t have to believe anything. Crazy though, how things still work when we choose to invest belief (or faith or whatever you want to call it) in them.
Lizarian, As you are discovering, being a member of a false church isn’t the worst thing that could happen to you. It is good to be discovering not only the truth, but the Truth. Resigning membership or converting peacefully to another religion may work for some people, including members of my extended family, but some of us feel called to stay in this corner of the garden.
Bitterness and anger are things all of us here recognize as enemies of our souls, and familiar ones at that. We don’t have to return to the old world of Testimony to enter a new world of Peace and Love and Faith. I don’t know that I would exactly describe myself any more as a classic Pauline Christian, but my faith in the Father burns brighter than ever, and my reliance on the Sermon on the Mount is vivid, real, and life-framing.
Welcome, sister [Oops, I knew that could get me in trouble. Make that brother], welcome. This is a safe place to pursue healing and purpose in a new kind of church membership and service.
Tom Haws wrote:Welcome, sister, welcome.
I think the identity got mixed up when people shortened “Lizarian” down to “Liz.” I had to go back and re-read the original intro.
Welcome *brother*
“people” means “me”. Someday, I swear I’ll learn to read. Lizarian, Thanks for your comments and welcome to the site! I echo Valoel’s recommendation of Fowler, and would add that Stage 4 is transitional by nature. It seems that people either go to a reconciliation (there are many versions of this) or trade across for a different Stage 3 black & white belief system. There are some rare folks who remain stage 4 for an extended period of time, but it is truly unhealthy. Life can be full of meaning and joy, but we have to chart our own course. Lizarian wrote:
So as I am reading the last conference Ensign, I am thinking…’Well that makes sense.’, or ‘I agree with that.’ or ‘that’s good advice’, or ‘that’s something I should be doing.’ I was thinking wow, I FEEL something here that I haven’t felt since the beginning of my marriage when I was active. I feel PEACE in my thoughts. I feel that everything will be okay. I feel that there is some purpose to the world, some order
Congrats Lizarian! It sounds to me like this may mark the beginning of a meaningful personal journey. Your personal reality is a meaningful reality. I hope that you will find something to aid you on your journey as you share with us.
Welcome!
Lizarian, if it helps you at all, I just listened to the Saturday morning conference talks over the last couple days. I heard a lot of good there about being provident providers and honest, charitable neighbors. I heard a lot I don’t like about borderline slavish devotion to authority (“I don’t care if he is my best friend, I’m calling him President, because anything else is disrespectful, provided of course that the “president” in question happens to be male”). I felt really good about the first talk and really bad about the next two. I felt much, much better when I realized that I have the freedom to be a part of the community without buying or even really listening to everything we tell people. I can participate in the service and not in the patriarchy. In my darkest time, I didn’t participate in either. I think that’s what helped me to feel a part of the community again: I realized that I can have the freedom to choose for myself and to see the good that is there. I feel better, anyway.
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