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I don’t want to say anything inappropriate here so I am trying to be careful. I wonder if Brigham Young really said that intercourse was involved when Mary became pregnant. Did he? I’ve heard that he did, but have not seen clear evidence. I’ll try to find a reference. I know it’s been said by more than one apostle and President back in the day – and I don’t believe it in the slightest.
Here is the most explicit statement:
Quote:“… I believe the Father came down from heaven, as the apostles said he did, and begat the Saviour of the world; for he is the ONLY-begotten of the Father, which could not be if the Father did not actually beget him in person…. I believe the Father came down in His tabernacle and begat Jesus Christ.”
(Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, volume 1, page 238)
At least he framed it with the words “I believe” and not something more authoritatively or “prophetic”.
The best apologetic response is to talk of what we know now about making babies without sexual intercourse occurring, but that obviously wasn’t understood or believed by earlier leaders who only could conceive of conception happening as a result of sexual intercourse. (pun intended) This is one belief of earlier leaders that I’m glad we don’t hear preached anymore.
Shawn wrote:I don’t want to say anything inappropriate here so I am trying to be careful. I wonder if Brigham Young really said that intercourse was involved when Mary became pregnant. Did he? I’ve heard that he did, but have not seen clear evidence.
This one does not bother me in least.
I think it is a great belief, OR a great myth. I like it…it shows that the gods are “human.” And I am not sure why so many Mormons are embarrassed by the doctrine.
I also like Greek and Roman mythology BTW. God
..Zeus. ….half mortal, half god offspring…yeah….its all good.
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Hmmm, that quote concerns me. I am going to read some JOD stuff. I might not come out okay…..here I go. cwald, it doesn’t make sense because she is the VIRGIN Mary. I just can’t fathom how intercourse would be needed or acceptable.
Sure. God could have used artificial insemination or waved a magic wand… I don’t know. Its all speculation, even on BY part. There is a lot of goofy stuff in the JOD…it’s why I have made myself comfortable picking and choosing, and taking the “truths” as I see them, and jettisoning the rest.
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A good friend tried to convince me that Jesus was the product of artificial insemination by God (ET). I can’t get my head around that idea.
Mike from Milton.
I’m okay with any type of artificial insemination. I am asking specifically about coitus. I hope I am not being too inappropriate. So here’s more from the address Ray sourced:
Quote:The New Testament tells me that the Father gave His only begotten Son a ransom for the sins of the world. Do you believe that, brother B.? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father? “Yes.” Do you believe the Son was begotten by the Father, as the Apostles said he was? Here I shall have to disagree with you, to begin with; for I believe the Father came down from heaven, as the Apostles said He did, and begat the Savior of the world; for he is the only begotten of the Father, which could not be if the Father did not actually beget him in person.
“I cannot believe that, for he is a God without body, parts, or passions; He has no person, therefore, I must disagree with you, brother Mormon.” I believe the Father came down in His tabernacle and begat Jesus Christ. Mr. B. believes He has no tabernacle. I believe He has a tabernacle, and begat Jesus Christ in His express image and likeness, because the Bible expressly declares it. You disbelieve it, because your priest and your mother have taught you it is not so.
Here’s what we get from the scriptures:Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. (
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/1.18 )And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/luke/1.35 )And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God. (
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/7.10 )So I’ve always understood that the Holy Ghost somehow made it happen. I don’t need any more details. Now, when Brother Brigham says “I believe the Father came down from heaven, as the Apostles said He did, and begat the Savior of the world,” what does the word “BEGAT” mean? I am on my phone and this is getting too long….
Here are some definitions of BEGET or BEGAT: 1. to be the father of
2. to cause
1. To father; sire.
2. To cause to exist or occur; produce: Violence begets more violence
1 : to procreate as the father : sire
2 : to produce especially as an effect or outgrowth
1. to father
2. to cause or create
Anyway, I suppose BEGAT does not necessarily mean coitus must be involved. I would actually defend Brother Brigham to the death, but I do wish he had some some things differently or left some things unsaid
In my studies today, I came across the Adam-God speach and had some interesting thoughts. I will post later.
So here’s a looong quote because I want its context to be considered. It’s from JOD Volume 1 starting on page 50:
Quote:The question has been, and is often, asked, who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary. The infidel world have concluded that if what the Apostles wrote about his father and mother be true, and the present marriage discipline acknowledged by Christendom be correct, then Christians must believe that God is the father of an illegitimate son, in the person of Jesus Christ! The infidel fraternity teach that to their disciples. I will tell you how it is. Our Father in Heaven begat all the spirits that ever were, or ever will be, upon this earth; and they were born spirits in the eternal world. Then the Lord by His power and wisdom organized the mortal tabernacle of man. We were made first spiritual, and afterwards temporal.
Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world.
He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken—He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do.Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. The thistle, the thorn, the brier, and the obnoxious weed did not appear until after the earth was cursed. When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal. When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession. I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and overrighteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone. I have heard men preach upon the divinity of Christ, and exhaust all the wisdom they possessed. All Scripturalists, and approved theologians who were considered exemplary for piety and education, have undertaken to expound on this subject, in every age of the Christian era; and after they have done all, they are obliged to conclude by exclaiming “great is the mystery of godliness,” and tell nothing. It is true that the earth was organized by
three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Again, they will try to tell how the divinity of Jesus is joined to his humanity, and exhaust all their mental faculties, and wind up with this profound language, as describing the soul of man, “it is an immaterial substance!” What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation.
I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now, remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. I will repeat a little anecdote. I was in conversation with a certain learned professor upon this subject, when I replied, to this idea—“if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children, to be palmed upon the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties.”
Treasure up these things in your hearts. In the Bible, you have read the things I have told you tonight; but you have not known what you did read. I have told you no more than you are conversant with; but what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know about this subject? Comparatively nothing.
See the parts that I bolded. Bro. Brigham says what we’ve all read before – that Adam is our Father, but then he said there are those three distinct characters. What are we to make of that?I’ll throw this in the mix as well… If you google “hebrew language virgin” it seems that the original term for “virgin” was “bethulah’ or “almah”. They seem to be just a term for a young lady who is not yet married or dependent on a husband and don’t have anything to do with sexual experience.
As far as the Adam God doctrine…there is probably an exhaustive thread somewhere. I’ll try to be brief:
My understanding is that terms like “God”, “Christ”, “Redeemer”, “Savior”, “Messiah”, etc. are titles or offices.
God is known by various titles, such as “Michael”, “Jehovah”, “Elohim”, “Father”, “I Am”, “Man of Holiness”, “Ahman”, etc. In the term “Elohim”, we speak of the head God, “God Almighty” the “”Council of Gods”, either as pertaining to earth or to other spheres. These offices as pertaining to Godhood are frequently used interchangeably. Much in the way that we refer to the Church and Kingdom of God.
An example:
“I am the Lord God Almighty, and endless is my name, for I am without beginning of days or end of years.”
This refers to the office, because the individual occupying that position is not without “beginning of days or end of years”.
He was born-begotten, as all human beings have been. But he came to occupy an office that has always existed and always will.
Deep stuff….
🙂 The Hebrew word “virgin” means “young woman” – and implies a non-married and thus, virginal, condition. “Virgin” came to mean one who has not had sex specifically because of the assumption that young, unmarried women had not had sex. Frankly, I don’t care much about it, since I view that aspect as symbolic, not literal. I’m not embarrassed in any way by the belief in some kind of physical conception; I just don’t believe Jesus’ divinity was the result of divine chromosomes. I know that is heterodox in our church, but it’s what I believe right now.
If I’m wrong, I’m wrong – and I’ll admit it freely if I come to know otherwise. I believe God will understand and be merciful to me.
Quote:Did the Prophet Isaiah say that a “virgin” or a “young woman” would conceive? According to Tim Callahan in his book Bible Prophecy: Failure or Fulfillment? (cf. pp. 115-16), the Hebrew word almah, “meaning a young woman of marriageable age, was translated into Greek in the Septuagint as parthenos or ‘virgin.’ Had the Hebrew meant to say virgin it would have used bethulah, which means specifically a virgin.” Yet according to I. J. Mikulski, a Catholic priest, Isaiah “used the word almah that can be translated ‘young woman’ as a synonym for ‘virgin.’ In fact,” he says, “there is no instance in the Hebrew Sacred Writings (our Old Testament) where almah means a young woman who is not a virgin.” Mikulski says “Old Testament writers understood that and chose their words accordingly. Matthew also understood that, of course, when he quoted Isaiah’s word in Greek.” Thus, “He used the word parthenos that has the precise meaning ‘virgin’. That’s the word used in the Greek Septuagint version of the Sacred Writings (Old Testament) translated about 250 B.C. by Jewish scholars for the Greek-speaking Jewish community in Egypt. So,” according to Mikulski, “nearly three centuries before Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ, nearly three centuries before anyone had reason to question Catholic doctrine, the meaning of Isaiah’s words almah-parthenos-virgin was clear.” Between Callahan and Mikulski, who is right?
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/virginprophecy.html Quote:Who is right?
I don’t know – and, honestly, I don’t think it matters.
Well, I’m not sure exactly what Brother Brigham meant when he said “I believe the Father came down from heaven…and begat the Savior of the world.” A case could be made in support of the idea that “begat” does not mean that intercourse was involved. Either way, it doesn’t really make a difference to me. If Brother Brigham really did mean that intercourse was involved, I will chalk it up to him having an incorrect understanding. I believe in a literal virgin birth. He said “[Adam] is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do” and in the same speech said “It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum.” It seems that he did NOT teach that Adam and Eloheim are the same personage. Or maybe he did. I’m okay either way.
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