Conflicted

[Anonymous]

As I start writing this, I realized that I never posted an introduction. Oh well, this will serve as a bit of one. Basically, because of a rather over-zealous, sorry uber-zealous, SP, I was disfellowshipped for some sins from my past that I thought were resolved completely. He didn’t think so because I hadn’t suffered the full extent of church discipline. We moved, found a much better stake and leadership and I was reinstated 2-3 months ago. That was of course after going through the full extent of church beaurocracy. You wouldn’t belive how many hoops you have to jump through. It was 4 months after the reconvened church discplinary counsel that we finally jumped through the last hoop. The only thing worse would have been if I had been ex’d. It wasn’t that people weren’t nice as I moved through the whole process, but it was governed more by corprate rules than spiritual promptings.

The hard part was that these sins had been completely resolved in my life and I had moved on blissfully and was now happily married with a child. I couldn’t understand why they would want to disrupt my life now. I thought that I had come to terms with my feelings, but I haven’t. Through that period I gained a greater faith in Christ and his ability to save and heal. In many ways my testimony of Christ strengthened tremendously, not that it was failing before. Much of the usual concerns about church history that people have really bother me. I kind of figure that we’re all men. Even if we are called of God, we’re still men with weaknesses. So that has never been an issue that weakened my testimony. I always found happiness in living the gospel and that’s what kept me around.

Much of my early life I was abused mentally and emotionally. It was much of the reason I had the problems with the sins that I did. I worked through those issues. Going through this recent process, I realized that the same type of behaviors my parents used to justify their abuse and to keep me subject to it came directly from how they were brought up and ultimately came from church leaders. When my stake president approached me he tried to make me feel guilty all over again for things that I had resolved with the Lord. He manipulated me into submitting to church discipline even though I didn’t feel like it was necessary. He made me feel like I was worthless all over again. It was the same way my parents treated me. Now when I listen to some talks and hear some people speak, I hear those same kinds of ideas expressed. I see this terribly absive, manipulative people proclaiming that it is the will of God that we subject ourselves to those things. I can’t abide that.

Deep down, I know that this is just more of the frailties of men that we all deal with, but I am really having a hard time letting this whole thing go. My whole life I’ve been taught that embracing the gospel as taught/run by the church is the same thing as having a good relationship with God. However, I’m having a hard time with the relationship with the church and that is hurting my relationship with God. How do I separate the two? I really feel like improving my relationship with God will eventually help me overcome my animosity. I want to find my sense of spirituality again, but can’t seem to let the whole thing go. When I go to church I can’t find the drive to participate again. I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop. So instead of trying to seek faith, I find myself trying to reject it all.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

My whole life I’ve been taught that embracing the gospel as taught/run by the church is the same thing as having a good relationship with God.

I have little time right now, but therein lies the heart of the issue, imo. Embracing the Gospel, embracing the Church and having a good relationship with God are three distinct and different things – and they need to be approached and explored as such.

[Anonymous]

Welcome! I am really glad you shared your story. Without sharing details, I feel like we have had similar experiences. I have never been disfellowshipped (probably because of my gender), but I too have had to go through the disciplinary process for sins that were a result of behaviors that were a result of abuse and incorrect thinking patterns that were passed on from parents and grandparents (mixed in with a healthy dose of church guilt and using the church as a weapon). I am in the process right now of sorting through many of these same issues and emotions. I like what Ray said and agree that it is important to separate the different issues. For me, it has been helpful to remember that my relationship with my Heavenly Father and Savior is just that….MY relationship. I believe that when I face my Savior and loving Father face-to-face, that it will be a very personal, intimate meeting and there will be no intermediary (such as a Bishop or Stake President). My bishop and other leaders are simply there to help me facilitate personal spiritual growth and development…but there are not my gateway to such. During times of repentance and probation (which are miserable and sweet at the same time–as they allow me to draw closer to the Savior and appreciate the atonement in more ways than I can ever imagine), I have to work very hard to remain humble and remember that it is STILL about my personal relationship with God/Christ and that the church bureaucracy is just a process that has to be completed. For now, I have found it very helpful to focus more on correcting the thought/behavior patterns that are creating a “weakness” in me that I want to strengthen (co-dependency) and staying close to my Savior/Heavenly Father. I am “tabling” my feelings about church issues until I am in a healthier place emotionally and spiritually. I don’t have any answers…just wanted to say welcome and all the best as you work through the feelings that surround this experience. I am happy that the issues have been handled and that you were humble enough to submit yourself to the entire disciplinary process (which can be grueling–even when handled with kindness). Blessings to you and yours.

[Anonymous]

Mr. Musicman,

Welcome to the forum and thank you for sharing your thoughts. I hope I can express my thoughts to you in the most sincere way that doesn’t come across judgmental or unsupportive, because I was really struck by how humble and contrite you sounded as you had to go through the church bureaucracy and process.

First, You sound like you have feelings and questions that still need to be worked out. Honor those valid feelings and don’t try to think them away with a positive mental attitude. Be positive and full of faith that you can work through those, but recognize your feelings are valid. For me, that is the first step to addressing my feelings I’ve suppressed for years.

Second, as you ask questions to the group, and I hope you feel open to do so, realize we are all here for the same reason and just trying to figure things out too…so I may not know any more than you on how to resolve it, especially since I haven’t been disfellowshipped to know the path you’ve had to go through. However, hopefully you will find this group is supportive and will share opinions and suggestions as you find answers for yourself, which hopefully as you share with us we can all be edified and learn from.

Third, realize what Ray said was true, and focus on your relationship with God. To me, your humble submission to church authorities sounds like the exact correct attitude and the Lord may want you to show Him you are truly seeking Him, despite whether the leaders are 100% correct or not, that is less important than how you are handling yourself to the ordained authorities in God’s eyes…IMO. I would suggest that perhaps you are unfulfilled with how the church leaders are making your resolve the issue because the true peace you seek doesn’t come from them, it comes from knowing God is pleased with the direction you are going in, despite where you’ve been. And that is the source that will fulfill you.

Welcome to the forum and I look forward to reading your views on subjects. May God bless you.

[Anonymous]

I feel at times that I was not given a “Hard Enough” punishment for a sin that I had commited almost two years ago now. ( However, the process was taken care of two years ago – and is done with now ) Even though I have a hard time with a lott of things – I don’t have a problem with prayer. I asked God to let me accept my punishment and not worry about it .. No matter if it was too drastic, or not for my liking. Well it turned out being a very small punishment. BUT I have found that time heals and I never think of it much anymore – I just went with the flow. I’m sorry if my words aren’t wonderful-Just know I went through the process kind of opposite in that it haunts me that I didn’t get a “Bad enough” punishment .. I feel like .. “Maybe I didn’t tell the whole thruth .. ” Maybe I left something out .. Maybe thats why I didn’t get punished hard enough. BUT then I remember I answered the questions truthfully .. I’m even tempted to like go back and say I feel like I need a re-do .. But maybe that is just Satan playing tricks on me. Welcome – There are great people here.

[Anonymous]

Thank you all for your thoughts. I think it has been my relationship with God that has helped me through all of this. Let me clarify a little something. I had worked through these sins and issues with a priesthood leader several years back and got my life in order. My life moved on, I was doing all of the things I was supposed to and I had truly repented of those sins. Not just gone through the punishment and not commit those sins again, but actually seek to change so that I no longer desired to commit those sins again. It was a long and often times painful process, but I learned a lot about myself and was at a place where I was at peace with God and felt forgiven. That was all broken, when the other person that had been involved with the sins decided to cause a ruckus and very blatantly exaggerate what happened 6 or 7 years later. It was my stake president at the time that decided I hadn’t suffered enough. That what I had overcome and accomplished in my life was not enough. I was forced to relive all of the pain and stuggle that I had left behind years ago. Not only that, he didn’t care how my wife felt about all of these things or how she was dealing with things. It was so hard on her, but she stood by. I had thought these issues were all resolved and behind me. I didn’t want to ever have to bring them into my marriage, but the church, namely my SP, decided that they all needed to be brought up again. So it wasn’t just that I was disfellowshipped so I could repent and resolve these issues, my disfellowshipment (is that a word) was because a leader thought that I had not suffered enough. That somehow it would make my repentance complete. It really has only brought more animosity towards the church.

The sad thing is there are many people out there in leadership positions that spout, even over the pulpit and in GC, the same kind of stuff that this SP does. They go around treating people so abusively and say it is in the name of God. The worst part of going through the church buearocracy is that most of the GA’s are actually pretty reasonable people. They really do care about people and want to help out. The zealots are really found in the Bishoprics and Stake Presidencies of the church. However, the COB will almost always defer to the local leaders and policy because they are closer to the situation. When I tried to appeal to the first presidency, I actually got to meet with one of the 70’s. He told me that he never calls people in, I was the first, but he thought it would be important. He was really nice and understanding, but basically said that it would be easier to just let this thing run its course. By the time I went through all of the appeals and such, that it would probably be easier and faster to just let it run its course. Thank goodness we moved and I got a better SP and Bishop. The ones I have are great.

I have thought about it a lot, and I think my testimony has become more Christ centered. I have a deeper understanding of grace and the role of works in the gospel. What I have learned is that I’m on a journey to learn and discover. I no longer feel like Christ is there telling me I’m bad for everything that I’ve done. I feel like I have an advocate that is there to guide me and to help me grow as a person. It is very liberating. I don’t wonder about my salvation. I don’t worry about it. I know that Christ knows my weaknesses and is there to help me with them. Christ is not in the business of condemnation, but rather exaltation. It is so wonderful. In some ways I feel like my beliefs now are not what some in the church teach, but they are things that I have learned from church sources. Much of my understandings have been gleaned from the BOM and D&C, church talks and other church speakers and writers. So this is my conflict. That’s why I titled this thread conflicted, but until just now I couldn’t put it into words. Even now my beliefs have been faciltated through the resorces of the church, but so much of what some in the church teach runs contrary to them. Like if I’m not perfect I won’t be saved. If I don’t do everything I won’t be saved. Just like my old SP, if I don’t go through the full extent of church discipline I won’t be saved, no matter what I’ve done in my life to overcome those sins. Then I think of Stephen E. Robinsons, book Believing Christ, where it basically says that if we were perfect we wouldn’t need a Savior. I know there are many people out there that don’t believe those things, but so many in leadership do. How do you deal with them? I think I just used to ignore them until my life was complete disrupted by one of them. Now I just worry that they have control and I start to view the church as a communist state. I know this is stupid and not true, I guess I am still shell shocked.

Sorry for the long post again, I think I may just need to get this all out somewhere. Thank you all for your support and thoughts.

[Anonymous]

All I can say is God bless you and yours as you continue to work through the aftermath of what must have been an incredibly difficult situation. I hope you are able to find peace.

[Anonymous]

Let me start by saying thank you mr_musicman for sharing your experience with us. I really appreciate it. I often feel like I’m the renegade on this forum so forgive me if my comments don’t align with the others.

Your story makes my blood boil. I will do my best to not allow my frustration to get the best of me in this post. Stories like your, in fact, are one of the reasons I seriously considered leaving the church, and why my first post on this forum was about raising my kids in such a potentially abusive environment.

mr_musicman wrote:

Now I just worry that they have control and I start to view the church as a communist state. I know this is stupid and not true

I don’t think you’re that far off. Once I started researching cult mind control techniques, I was shocked at the similarities between a typical cult and Mormonism. It is not terribly surprising though since after Joseph’s death, we instituted the modern temple ordinances, continued to encourage polygamy, and started a theocracy. This sequence of events would transform just about any organization into a cult. See here http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/articles/BITE.htm” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/articles/BITE.htm for a fairly comprehensive model of various cult control techniques. I admit that things are not as extreme as they used to be, and the leaders are getting better at demonstrating cult like behaviors.

mr_musicman wrote:

They go around treating people so abusively and say it is in the name of God.

I think you’re exactly right on this. Certainly not everything they say, but yes, much of what they say has this effect in our community. This is just one of the reasons we remain cult-like in the church today.

The more interesting question, for me, is not whether or not the church tends toward communism or cult-like mentality (they do IMHO), it is where do we go from here? For me, once I realized this, it became easier to dismiss the type of nonsense of which you speak. This led to my acceptance of the church as typifying many other man-made organizations. This allows me to not give it control over my life and choices. I remain LDS, viewing the church as a utility to help me serve and love others in a Christ-like way. Part of this is because it is my tribe, and a foundation in my life. Should my tribe decide (via its leaders) it no longer wants me, I wouldn’t be too broken up about it (although my extended family probably would be). I would definitely be more concerned with the social consequences than the spiritual ones.

I strongly agree with what Ray said. Separating your spirituality and salvation from the church is vital and will have amazing effects in your situation.

LaLaLove wrote:

Just know I went through the process kind of opposite in that it haunts me that I didn’t get a “Bad enough” punishment .. I feel like .. “Maybe I didn’t tell the whole thruth .. ” Maybe I left something out .. Maybe thats why I didn’t get punished hard enough.

I mean no offense LaLaLove, but the idea that we have to endure some amount of punishment in order to redeem ourselves seems crazy to me now. Having said that, let me state that only one year ago, I was in this exact position. Before my mission particularly I played the mental gymnastics you write about here. Personally, I believe this is an attempt to satisfy man, not God. But this is a very Western civilization idea. That the natural man is sinful, and we must atone for it via punishment. I simply don’t believe this anymore. I prefer to view us as no more or less than what we are (whatever that is). Our goal, in my opinion is to “tend” toward the good.

Heber13 wrote:

To me, your humble submission to church authorities sounds like the exact correct attitude and the Lord may want you to show Him you are truly seeking Him, despite whether the leaders are 100% correct or not, that is less important than how you are handling yourself to the ordained authorities in God’s eyes…IMO. I would suggest that perhaps you are unfulfilled with how the church leaders are making your resolve the issue because the true peace you seek doesn’t come from them, it comes from knowing God is pleased with the direction you are going in, despite where you’ve been. And that is the source that will fulfill you.

I believe there is value in humility. But I don’t believe that there is added value in bowing to authority, or even being humble towards it. I don’t believe in the idea that God expects us to follow our leaders just because they’re our leaders. This goes along the lines of “obedience is the first law of heaven.” Personally, I don’t believe this anymore. This simply puts too much power in the hands of fallible men. But I do think Heber nailed it by saying “the true peace you seek doesn’t come from them, it comes from knowing God is pleased…”

Let me offer my suggestions:

[Anonymous]

Everything I have to say has been said by others now, but I still wanted the chance to say “welcome musicman”, and I hope to hear more from you as your story unfolds.

I particularly liked Ray’s advice,

Old-Timer wrote:

mr. musicman wrote: “My whole life I’ve been taught that embracing the gospel as taught/run by the church is the same thing as having a good relationship with God.”

I have little time right now, but therein lies the heart of the issue, imo. Embracing the Gospel, embracing the Church and having a good relationship with God are three distinct and different things – and they need to be approached and explored as such.

I completely agree with this.

I also liked what jmb wrote:

jmb275 wrote:

I believe there is value in humility. But I don’t believe that there is added value in bowing to authority, or even being humble towards it. I don’t believe in the idea that God expects us to follow our leaders just because they’re our leaders. This goes along the lines of “obedience is the first law of heaven.” Personally, I don’t believe this anymore. This simply puts too much power in the hands of fallible men. But I do think Heber nailed it by saying “the true peace you seek doesn’t come from them, it comes from knowing God is pleased…”

Let me offer my suggestions:

Let go of the idea that the church is God’s one and only kingdom on earth, to which you must belong and be in good standing in order to gain salvation.

Let go of the idea that there is salvation in the next life that is dependent on your deeds, and punishments here.

Embrace the idea that god is within you. It’s your journey, your spirituality. Seek to find the god within you on your terms, not on the church’s.

Don’t allow the church or its leaders to dictate your feelings and spirituality. If you do you, you are like the rebellious teenager who ironically resists control by insisting on doing the exact opposite of what his parents say.

(This one is most important I think) Seek spiritual growth from other sources outside the Mormon box, and don’t try to shoehorn what you learn into the Mormon box. This doesn’t mean you need to stop reading the BoM, or cease to be a member, it just means to reach out and seek learning elsewhere. Once I did this it has been the most rewarding experience of my life.

This is wonderful advice. Also, I share in the feelings of disgust that have been expressed regarding the persecution/punishment of members by overly zealous leaders. I really feel for you. Even as someone who is pretty much agnostic, I was really sad to read in your post that your relationship with the church is hurting your relationship with God… it should be just the opposite. However, different local leaders can make all the difference. My bishop is awesome. Now that you have a more reasonable bishop and SP, things can only get better. Hang in there, and focus on this (your own words):

mr_musicman wrote:

I know that Christ knows my weaknesses and is there to help me with them. Christ is not in the business of condemnation, but rather exaltation. It is so wonderful.

[Anonymous]

jmb275 wrote:

I believe there is value in humility. But I don’t believe that there is added value in bowing to authority, or even being humble towards it. I don’t believe in the idea that God expects us to follow our leaders just because they’re our leaders. This goes along the lines of “obedience is the first law of heaven.” Personally, I don’t believe this anymore. This simply puts too much power in the hands of fallible men. But I do think Heber nailed it by saying “the true peace you seek doesn’t come from them, it comes from knowing God is pleased…”

I must say that I completely agree with this. This experience has taught me to stand up more for what I believe in. Thank you all for your responses. This has really helped me to come to terms with my feelings. I have been at sort of an impass lately. My personal beliefs have not really changed, in fact they’ve been strengthened. After having to deal with all of that, I think I was beginning to feel like my more moderate or even liberal (from a mormon point of view) were not welcome in the church. I am wrong. There are many people out there that feel the same way I do. We can’t let the spiritual bullies win. Thank you all for your help and this chance to vent.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

There are many people out there that feel the same way I do.

I feel the same, and am grateful for having this forum to open up and see it isn’t just me with doubts.

I think it is interesting that human nature or temptations from the dark side (or however you want to put it) seems to make us feel our problems are unique, we are different, others have it all figured out, I might as well not try, something is wrong with me.

How interesting to me that a bunch of strangers can come together on this blogspot and share such similar feelings. To me, that is some testimony that we are all children of God and there is a plan that applies to all of us.

[Author]

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