Conflicted TBM

[Anonymous]

Tom – a question for you… I’ve been going back through everyone’s wonderful responses to my introduction and making a reading list of things I want to study and look at.

in your first post to me, you said:

Quote:

It may be a long process that could take years. I suggest you go slow and stay mindful of the tenderness of your soul and the danger of anger and bitterness. Speak slowly. Make decisions slowly. Ponder slowly.

I’ve been considering going to talk to my bishop to see if he has any recommendations of study material. I think it may serve me good to continue to study both church and non-church material, not just go the way of avoiding all the normal Stage 3 Mormon material. But I wonder what he will think of me if I really share all my doubts.

You suggested I speak “slowly” – do you think I should hold off while I study and not raise issues that I might resolve on my own later? Or what was your intent by the slow advice? :

[Anonymous]

Tom Haws wrote:

Re: taking a mind break from Mormonism

I think there is great wisdom in that. Exposure to “that which is good among them” can do wonders. There will be time later for re-integrating and reframing your LDS-ness. For now, build your own understanding by reaching out and seeing that all these wonders have existed through all times and in all cultures. Read the Bhagavad Gita (it’s short; I love the Edwin Arnold translation; check out chapter 16 here). Read near death testimonies (Kevin Williams’ site is a wonderful labor of love http://www.near-death.com) . Learn something you didn’t know about yoga (http://www.yogaworld.org is great!). Learn of Perpetua, James, Saint Francesco, and other old saints. Read of Robert Fox and the Quakers. Learn of the Emperor Ashoka’s conversion. Watch the movie Ghandi. Find your new, alternative devotional reading. Be reverent in a new way.

I second on reading the Bhagavad Gita. I have yet to read into it BUT my DH recommened it to me as well. My DH is a great TBM guy .. and usually has really great taste in cool reads. Ghandi was a good movie as well . I would like to add that Music, just like writing, is very healing … If you are a muscic fan.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Music, just like writing, is very healing … If you are a muscic fan.

I am honestly a HUGE iTunes fan and satellite radio subscriber so I can listen w/o commercials. However, singing is not my thing. I often read the hymns and listen to others who are gifted with good voices, and have taken criticism I’m not singing, but honestly, I don’t get much out of hymns at church. I guess that is just me.

[Anonymous]

I seem to be happy with where I am headed in my journey. My family crisis is starting to become resolved, slowly (too slowly for my impatient self), but the lingering effects will forever change our family…it never goes back to the way it was, but moves forward to a new and more exciting stage in life.

It is time to change my tagline below my signatures. I think I have moved beyond doubting everything. By being able to let myself doubt, I was able to be honest with myself and let myself search things I wouldn’t have searched out and learned from had I forced myself to stay dedicated to grinding out my situation in church-doctrine with fear-based pressure I put on myself to be strong in the face of my trials.

Letting go of that, I have been enlightened and feel good at allowing things to happen in my life, allowing others to believe what they want, and allowing nature to remind me of the power of God.

My old tagline:

“If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things” – Rene Descartes

My new tagline:

Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief, better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery – Joseph Campbell

I hope I can grow enough spiritually that I can have a light to radiate that others might look to as evidence of God’s love for us all.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

I hope I can grow enough spiritually that I can have a light to radiate that others might look to as evidence of God’s love for us all.

AMEN and AMEN!

[Anonymous]

Hello. I wish you all the best in life. All the success, all the happiness, all the peace that anyone could ever have. During my worst moments of frustration (i’m still having some) what has kept me in church is my kids. I want them to stay out of trouble, and the church does a better job at that than any other organization I have found. If my kids see me go to church, then they will likely go. If they go to church, they have the best chance at a successful life. If they stay away from immorality and dishonesty, then they have a prayer of success in their life. Keeping them in church doesn’t guarantee anything, but it helps their chances of staying away from those things which can make their lives harder. At my job I see the effects of living outside of Christian Doctrines, and it just creates so much sadness, I really don’t want that for my kids. May God bless you and watch over you.

[Anonymous]

Heber, as I read your first post I felt I should point something out. You listed your priorities. By a worldly standard these are very good, but God should be first. It is because of Him that we are, and that we have a family to love. I’ve been attending several different churches lately, today a pastor was talking about idols, that they are anything that we give more importance to than God. Family can become an idol for many of us, I don’t know you or what you meant when you typed that, but it appears you may have your priorities mixed up. Trust in God first, he will provide all the rest.

[Anonymous]

J-Pip wrote:

Trust in God first, he will provide all the rest.

While I agree with this in principle, people run into issues when this has not worked for them as they expected. That sometimes cause people a crisis of faith. I’m talking in general (not about Heber13 specifically).

Sometimes that answer just isn’t enough for them. It makes perfect sense to someone with great faith in God. It doesn’t always help people struggling with that same faith.

[Anonymous]

Valoel wrote:

It makes perfect sense to someone with great faith in God. It doesn’t always help people struggling with that same faith.

Thanks for that gentle and helpful reminder. It appears you are doing a good job of remaining both sensitive and positive.

[Anonymous]

J-Pip wrote:

Family can become an idol for many of us, I don’t know you or what you meant when you typed that, but it appears you may have your priorities mixed up. Trust in God first, he will provide all the rest.

J-Pip, first, thanks for reading my intro and for taking time to comment on it.

Your point is a good one, one that makes me think I should clarify my intro. Clearly, these are all intertwined and there is overlap…I can’t serve my family without having faith we are eternally sealed by the power of God, and as I teach them church principles and take them to church, we stay close as a family. I can’t provide for my family without my career, so they go hand in hand. To go back to my priorities list, my real intent that I should have clarified is: 1) Family, 2) Church; 3) Career. #2 was really referring to church service, more than my priority to God on a personal relationship level (although I realize I did type out “God and church second”-so I included God there…perhaps there is something there I need to reflect on about my true feelings…but I just remember my intent was church comes after family).

My daily prayers to God were how to balance my life, how to be a better husband and father, saint and employee, and my relationship with God was over all I did. I was trying to find His will and how He wanted me to be, so I could prioritize my roles and responsibilities, I just felt very alone and started doubting if my prayers were really being heard.

To be honest, I don’t know how I could put family ahead of God and make them competing forces, or how family can be an “idol”, as you mentioned? My faith still is that God wants me first and foremost to keep my family together and all of us return to live with Him. But putting family before church responsibilities can be done while still keeping God’s plan focused on my mind.

This is what has been helpful for me…staying LDS but seeking to understand many of the things I do and believe in…and if there are things that need to be tweaked to bring me into line with truth, I need to be able to doubt and question things so I can discover that to come to a deeper meaning of the simple gospel I have lived throughout my life up until now.

My trial has been, if putting God first in my life means to know His will and then do it, how can I know His will if I don’t feel my prayers are answered? How do I know if my actions are pleasing to God first before trying to please others if I don’t know if I’m pleasing Him without some confirmation?

Maybe you can elaborate to me a little more how the simple phrase of “Trust in God first, he will provide all the rest” is enough in a complex situation that requires immediate actions to survive?

Valoel wrote:

While I agree with this in principle, people run into issues when this has not worked for them as they expected. That sometimes cause people a crisis of faith. I’m talking in general (not about Heber13 specifically).

Sometimes that answer just isn’t enough for them. It makes perfect sense to someone with great faith in God. It doesn’t always help people struggling with that same faith.

Valoel, you said that well…you can apply that to Heber13 as well…call it crisis of faith or test of faith or what you will, I don’t think any are immune to having your deepest beliefs challenged in this life, no matter how strong your faith is. I doubt Abraham went along with the plan to kill his son without a lot of thought and searching for what was right. In the end, he believed God would raise his son up again, so his confidence was that God would provide a way. But he didn’t head off to obey until he had some confidence it would work out. Until you get that confidence, it is a trying and dark time where doubts creep in and you really learn things about yourself. Maybe some people’s dark/trying times are just shorter than others because they don’t give heed to some things…but mine went on for a while and it shook me up…I think for a good purpose in learning.

I am sure I will have more of those experiences in my life as well. And as they become more intense, simple answers of “read, pray, and go to church” just don’t solve all your problems. It has to be a test of faith that really stretches you to try something new and learn.

[Anonymous]

coolbruce wrote:

Hello. I wish you all the best in life. All the success, all the happiness, all the peace that anyone could ever have. During my worst moments of frustration (i’m still having some) what has kept me in church is my kids. I want them to stay out of trouble, and the church does a better job at that than any other organization I have found. If my kids see me go to church, then they will likely go. If they go to church, they have the best chance at a successful life. If they stay away from immorality and dishonesty, then they have a prayer of success in their life. Keeping them in church doesn’t guarantee anything, but it helps their chances of staying away from those things which can make their lives harder. At my job I see the effects of living outside of Christian Doctrines, and it just creates so much sadness, I really don’t want that for my kids. May God bless you and watch over you.

Thanks for the encouragement and kind words coolbruce. I came to that same line of reasoning, that continuing to go to church despite my doubts would be helpful for my kids. Although my daughter has really started doubting things and doesn’t like to go, which has led to some interesting discussions as I’ve opened up a little to tell her some of my recent feelings. I didn’t intend to share them with her, but she came to me with the same questions I was going through, so I wanted to be honest with her. It has helped keep us close.

While taking the kids to church won’t guarantee anything, as you said, it doesn’t seem to be anything that is bad that I should keep them away from. They need something to teach them values, and the church does that. If they were not in my house, I would likely have taken a break and stopped going for a while, but by now would be back at church as I have resolved some things. It has been better for them to see me continually going rather than seeing me not go for a while…I would think they would use my example to justify times they don’t feel like going, and I hope they’ll strive to push themselves to go as much as possible, just like I have been blessed by continuing to go even when I didn’t want to.

[Anonymous]

Hi Heber. I just found this thread today and I was excited to read your story. You have commented on a few of my posts and I thank you for that.

I was thinking about your descriptions of unanswered prayers and church lessons that don’t touch your soul….let alone interest your intellect. I don’t know if your situation is anything like mine, but I had a long period of time when I didn’t feel God was anywhere close to me. It was a time of intense pain and confusion and loss. It was a series of traumas….little ones maybe to others but big ones to me. And where was God? Off helping someone more important? Where was Jesus? Off creating another planet? I felt insignificant, foolish, angry, and abandoned. I even yelled at God once. Ok, a few times. And somehow thru all the tears I felt Him there. It was like he really understood and he even understood my anger towards him. No condemnation. Not even the slightest correction. Just empathy. Just openness. He didn’t tell me why he left me alone. He didn’t explain why the fourth watch never came…..not to mention the fifth and the sixth and the twentieth. He just understood. I decided something in my heart that day. I felt a love that I hadn’t felt from any human in my life or around me. Had he really left me alone….or had he just given me an extended experience while he monitored my learning? I put my faith into discovering the meaning behind all the loneliness and all the struggle and the answers started to come to me and slowly I think I have made sense of it.

For a long time, I couldn’t believe in Jesus or healing. I really doubted the power of the priesthood in this respect and certainly had lost faith in mans ability to exercise it, if indeed it did exist. And then I was on a boat in Alaska floating near a big giant glacier. And quietly a voice feeling came into my mind. It was explained to me that sometimes healing happens in an instant and other times it comes in a process and that my healing would happen just like the glacier in front of me……slowly. But that after he was done, that the entire landscape of my life would look different. Fresh. New. Whole. And so I applied myself to heart wrenching patience.

I don’t know. Sometimes I wonder about all of us who have experienced these trials of faith. Is there some greater reason behind it? Are we being prepared for something or strengthened for some purpose later on?

You seem like a kind one, heber13. Maybe Father is doing something wonderful with you too. I wish pain wasn’t such a good teacher.

Much blessings to you. I look forward to more conversations with you in future.

[Anonymous]

Poppyseed wrote:

I don’t know if your situation is anything like mine, but I had a long period of time when I didn’t feel God was anywhere close to me. It was a time of intense pain and confusion and loss.

Yep, that’s exactly how I felt. Although I was never really mad at God (that I remember anyway), I was hurt. I don’t exaggerate when I saw there was never a time in my life when I needed help more. My mom and my brother dropped everything to fly out and be with me (for which I’ll be eternally grateful), but I couldn’t get any feelings from the Holy Ghost. I hurt me, I didn’t feel close to God, and it really scared me.

Poppyseed wrote:

And somehow thru all the tears I felt Him there. It was like he really understood and he even understood my anger towards him. No condemnation. Not even the slightest correction. Just empathy. Just openness.

I think this is what I expected. I haven’t yet experienced it. I don’t know if I ever will. I think it has changed my view of how God works and how He allows things to happen. I don’t think He intervenes in my life as much as I previously had faith that He did.

Poppyseed wrote:

I put my faith into discovering the meaning behind all the loneliness and all the struggle and the answers started to come to me and slowly I think I have made sense of it.

This is the stage I’m still in. What is the meaning? I think it has something to do with growing through breaking out of my comfortable TBM shell, and start questioning my world. I have certainly learned a lot since. I’m not sure I still have settled my faith in how God works and how prayers work. I have gotten past doubting if God exists, but still wonder what to pray for and what expectations I should have in intervention. Still more to learn. But I am at peace and focused on love and the beauties of this world today, not fear of tomorrow.

Poppyseed wrote:

It was explained to me that sometimes healing happens in an instant and other times it comes in a process and that my healing would happen just like the glacier in front of me……slowly.

I’m sure my lesson has something to do with this too…Tom told me from the day I posted my bio to go slow and take things slowly. Best advice I received. As I allow myself to move slowly and not make rash decisions, today I still have a family and my testimony in the church (although a different kind of testimony). If another tsunami of trials come my way that rock my world again, I don’t know if I am now stronger to face them or weaker and still recovering…I hope I don’t need to find out.

Poppyseed wrote:

Much blessings to you.

Thanks. I need them. I’m not out of the wilderness yet, but I think I’m heading in the right direction. I wish the same to you, many blessings.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Yep, that’s exactly how I felt. Although I was never really mad at God (that I remember anyway), I was hurt. I don’t exaggerate when I saw there was never a time in my life when I needed help more. My mom and my brother dropped everything to fly out and be with me (for which I’ll be eternally grateful), but I couldn’t get any feelings from the Holy Ghost. I hurt me, I didn’t feel close to God, and it really scared me.

I guess I felt betrayed by all the promises made by the church over all the years. I mean, my life was falling apart. I didn’t have anyone fly out to help me, so you are one up on me there. And I was, as you said so well, in more need of Godly help than any other time in my life. So when the rubber really needed to hit the road, I discovered something painfully different. I see differently now, though. I am much more humble (I hope) and much less assuming than I was before. I actually feel like God is requiring more of me with regards to all my “me” issues. Does that make sense?

Quote:

I think this is what I expected. I haven’t yet experienced it. I don’t know if I ever will. I think it has changed my view of how God works and how He allows things to happen. I don’t think He intervenes in my life as much as I previously had faith that He did.

I think I said this a hundred times to my DH in the last year and a half. It really was like I had this big heap of evidence that God wasn’t there and that I was really on my own…..and then I had this glimmering hint of spiritual knowledge too that I couldn’t argue with. It felt like an inner wrestling match…..and I feel like I just have to take it one battle at a time and it seems like it is becoming resolved one little piece at a time. So maybe that advise to go slow and to do so in gratitude for the beauty of today really is the best approach. I think for a long time I panicked and needed it to be all better right then. I think I learned somewhat to be patient with the process. Somehow I don’t feel so patient today. I feel the old pain and fear welling up. And sometimes I feel tired and frustrated. I guess that is part of the journey too. You sound more at peace. It feels good to hear that. I need to get back there and not pretend to have peace when I don’t but really find the peace in circumstances that aren’t solved…..or finished.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I actually feel like God is requiring more of me with regards to all my “me” issues. Does that make sense?

Yes, that makes sense to me, and is what I think about too. Like you, my panic made me feel an urgency that I need help now…but I got through it. Maybe God knew I was ok to figure it out on my own, but I felt I was entitled to at least some confirmation or comfort in time of need…I either didn’t get it or missed the signal. I have wondered at times if my mom and brother’s help was God’s help in telling them to go be angels for me in time of need…that is a possibility, but doesn’t erase the feeling I had that I was not close to God. My feeling of entitlement is also something I have wondered about…it sounds so prideful to express it that way, so maybe my heart was in the wrong place and I was taught a lesson about that.

Bottom line, after the fact, I can go back and put meaning to things, but it does make me wonder when I can really know God hears my prayers, and when I just have to wait for an outcome, see the result, then go back and place meaning to it. That was not the way I understood revelation to work. I still don’t know how revelation works, and that is part of my current journey is figuring out how to have faith moving forward. But at least I’m at peace and can go to church and not be bitter anymore.

[Author]

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