- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
cwald wrote:
It almost feels like sometimes we are admonished to strive to follow the savior’s example – TO A CERTAIN POINT, and then quit. I guess that is why Fowler tells us that once one achieves stage 6 like the Savior did – there is a good chance you’re going to get killed because of it.
I dunno…I get the idea from the scriptures we are admonished to be like the Savior as much as we possibly can…not to stop at some point. However, I think most are not competent (including me) to follow the Savior in some ways that are beyond their capabilities. I don’t think Jesus was 100% obedient to the church’s laws…but was 100% obedient to God’s laws and universal truths.I also think you have to be careful not to mix the individual Stages of faith with what the Church teaches about stages of faith. I do not find the church encourages or teaches members to seek stage 4 or 5 or 6, but that they should stay Stage 3 in order to make the organization work well (remain safe in the fold).
However, it is just a natural thing for many that they will leave stage 3, and when they do…it is a personal journey to go from stage 4 to choosing to go back to stage 3 or move towards stage 5. That is up to the individual, not what the church teaches.
I think stage 6 thinking is extremely rare…and if we are to seek that, we must really be in tune with the mind of God, or whatever the individual calls it, so that one can introduce new paradigms, not just work within existing paradigms.
That is my understanding of things.
Okay – so is that a paradox then. The church “wants” it’s member to remain at stage 3 thinking, yet they also preach to “be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect?” Are we not taught that we should strive to become Christ like, which would require one to achieve level 6? I’m just asking? cwald wrote:I’m just asking?
I can offer my opinion, but would be open to hear what others think about it too.
I just think that almost all people are not even capable of becoming like Christ in this life. So while we are commanded to seek that path…we may not be able to get there now. So there can be different paths. Some can stay Stage 3 and use that framework to continually develop throughout their whole earthly existence (there is enough to work on that that paradigm still allows as much development as possible in this life). That is where the church can provide guidance and rules for safely traveling that road. The Iron Rod keeps one on the path, and the person develops as much as possible on that path.
Others who are pushed out into stage 4 must find ways to personally develop faith to continue on the path towards becoming Christ-like. I’m not sure the church can teach how to do the unique journey…other than to teach us to use our capacities to discern what is right and wrong with personal revelation. But the journey is our personal journey, led by tools like the Liahona, instead of the Iron Rod.
I think that path leads one to seek peace by deciding to go back to Stage 3 with greater empathy for others but peaceably live within Stage 3 paradigms, or move towards Stage 5 to accept the conjunctive faith.
The fact I don’t understand stage 6 is evidence to me I’m not near that stage, but for those who do reach that and are becoming Christ-like in stage 6 faith development, they very well could experience excommunication or even death…but they are not concerned with that as much as they are concerned with the enlightenment their faith gives them. That is how I would try to explain the paradox.
Just because the Church doesn’t know how to teach stage 5 faith doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be happy with someone safely arriving there. I think Ray is an example of that. Most church leaders accept him the way he is. Ray, would you agree?
Heber13 wrote:Ray, would you agree?
Yes. (Oh, I’m not Ray
I like your analysis…and I will say something that might offend a few: I agree that the church (mostly) teaches stage three, and that many get “pushed out” when they feel the necessity to spread their wings a bit. AND I see that Ray and others (John Dehlin, Brian, etc…) have learned that they can find spiritual experiences in regular activity in the church, but understand that it is unique, and many others cannot.
I also feel that many church leaders cannot, will not, understand these other stages of faith…that is not their calling; they do an excellent job of doing what they are best at. Their is nothing wrong with that.
But I also feel that all this is not unique to Mormonism. It’s in every religion/spiritual philosophy. We are all doing the best we can with what we have been given. (have I said that before?)
😆 Wow Pearl. I am sorry you were treated so badly in your time of need by someone who we are all supposed to trust. I also went through a bad experience with a Bishop.
I’m glad you joined this group of wonderful people.
To add just a little about the stages of faith discussion: What the LDS Church (or any church, for that matter) can’t do is spend time and resources dealing broadly with Stage 4. I really don’t believe “The Church” wants people to remain in Stage 3 – but rather that they don’t want lots of members to struggle for extended periods with Stage 4, especially knowing that many won’t make it through to Stage 5 but instead shift into a different Stage 3 view or remain solidly in the bitterness of Stage 4.
I’m not saying that all church leaders understand Fowler’s stages of faith. I’m just saying that no organization, especially a religious one, is capable of throwing the doors wide open and saying, “Everyone reach your own conclusions about everything.”
All organizations have a core role of creating a degree of solidarity for people who think alike with regard to some core principle(s). There’s no getting around that.Therefore, the central role of any organization is to provide stability and unity and security in some way – and that is not compatible at the communal level with angst, despair, bitterness and pain (Stage 4), even if those things can lead some to greater understanding, peace and “a fulness of joy” (Stages 5 and 6). Individuals can pursue that, but organizaytions simply can’t do so. Again, it’s not that they want people to remain in Stage 3; it’s that they don’t want people to drown in Stage 4. Honestly, I think the LDS Church does a very good job of preaching the foundation of reaching Stage 5 and Stage 6, by taking seriously the admonition to “be ye therefore perfect, even as you father which is in heaven is perfect” – but I think it would be even better in that focus if leaders preached more clearly the definition of perfect as “complete, whole, fully developed”, not “mistake free”. I think that message actually is taught quite regularly, but often it isn’t as clear as I think it could be – and other times it really isn’t understood in clear enough terms to be taught effectively.
The balance between unprofitable servitude and striving for perfection (grace and works, mercy and justice) is not easy to understand, and it’s not easy to teach in a way that works across a large organization – but I still think Mormonism “gets it” better than any other religion I’ve studied. I just agree that the Church itself can’t push people toward Stage 4. All they can do, imo, is preach the Stage 5 and Stage 6 ideal and hope individual members navigate Stage 4 as quickly and painlessly as possible – and be more open with things that cause Stage 4, which I also believe is happening much more lately than over the last two decades prior to Pres. Hinckley’s tenure as Prophet. (The authorization and publishing of the Joseph Smith papers project is a good example of that, as everything is being published without commentary or “spin”. It’s a very exciting project.)
(I also will add that I think there is at least one apostle at any given time who seems to be the person who speaks the most openly about Stages 5 & 6 and about loving those in Stage 4. Elder Wirthlin served that role when he was alive, and I think Elders Cook and Christofferson might take his place now. I’ll need a little while to see how that develops.)
Welcome Pearl Earring! Glad to have you here. I really like Vermeer too, thought I would throw that in. Our family went to the National Art Gallery in DC the other week. My 17 year old daughter in particular wanted to see his works on display there. That painting is was one of them.
Hello Pearl, I resonate a great deal with what seems to be your feelings of guilt or at least uncertainty regarding what you should do and believe. We are both new here but I have visited this site often while not a registered member unil now and have no doubt that this is the place to be to learn and grow in a safe, spiritual, supportive way. These comments have motivated me to reveiw the stages of faith as they seem so vital and often referred to in comments.
My biggest challenge – because I am able to work from home – is that I need to find a way to stay away from this site long enough to actually get my work done!
Vermeer is my favorite painter, so welcome to the site, Pearl Earring! I’m very sorry your bishop was not equipped to provide what you needed. I’ve said elsewhere, with 32,000 bishops in the church, they can’t all be winners! Yet I have seen many who are terrific on the whole and yet have failed in individual situations. Personally, I think the church should reevaluate to some extent how much emphasis is placed on counseling with your local leaders, not that I think escalating to higher levels should be the rule of thumb either. I think one is more likely to find useful advice and counsel from various places, but it has to be an existing relationship of trust and care, IMO. Sometimes, we expect things from bishops that they (individually) can’t deliver:
–
validation. Some who go to the bishop with issues really just want someone to say “you’re OK with God” or “you’re OK with the church.” And they might get that, or they might not. The bishop may not be willing to validate their OKness. The bishop may misunderstand what they are hearing (they may make assumptions based on their previous experiences). They may be more concerned about the 99 than the 1. –
answers. This one is really a crapshoot for several reasons: 1) for some stuff, there are no real answers, just speculation, and 2) many bishops are not well-versed in history or deeper theological questions. They are just good people doing the best they can to help their flock. –
life wisdom based on personal experience. Another iffy one. If they have relevant life experience, they may be good at this. If they don’t, they might give bad advice. And sometimes people go to a bishop wanting to turn over their life choices to an authority rather than taking personal responsibility. –
inspired counsel & revelation unique to us. There is a “superstitious” element to people going to the bishop sometimes. They want the bishop to counsel them as a representative of God, as someone who is literally speaking through the Spirit in the interaction. And they might get this, or they might not. Even if a bishop is inspired 80% of the time, you might get them on an off day. Or you might get a bishop who is simply in that position because he’s righteous, toes the party line, and is a strong administrator. An individual bishop may be great at providing those in your personal situation, or may not be. So much depends on so many different unpredictable factors. I’d recommend going to trusted people who have your best interests at heart and whom you know to have relevant experience and advice to give. I guess that’s why we created this site! (Of course, with the anonymity, you have to take us for what it’s worth).
Quote:The question was asked, “How do you begin on the cycle of apostasy?” Answers included criticizing church leaders, wanting to know more, choosing not to follow some of the commandments, etc.
I think there is also truth to these answers, but with caveats. The following do lead to apostasy, IMO:
– unduly criticizing church leaders and becoming depressed about it. Critizing others (whether leaders or not) and becoming offended by their flaws or their inadequacies. Or criticizing others (especially in authority) while holding oneself to a lower standard. Likewise, though, I would say putting too much trust in the arm of flesh is likely to lead to apostasy, just further down the road.
– Wanting to know more doesn’t lead directly to apostasy, but making assumptions can, and also misapplying our conclusions can. Spending time on historical claims that are dead and speculative and less or no time on personal edification and our relationship with God can lead to apostasy. And I would also say that knowledge isn’t the same as wisdom. Wisdom has valuable practical application. To me, wisdom leads to enlightenment, but knowledge can lead to apostasy if we lack wisdom.
– Choosing not to follow some of the commandments can lead to apostasy because you realize how fun it is to be naughty! But I also think, ironically, that it can lead to a loss of spirit and a desire to return in a way that can be very effective. But I would say the longer road to apostasy is the road of blind unquestioning obedience because sometimes we might be asked to do something stupid. Seeking understanding while holding ourselves to high standards of conduct to me is the way to avoid apostasy. The key is not to turn over responsibility for our choices to those in authority. We have to own our own choices.
Wow. So many thoughtful comments. I’m honored that each of you would take so much time to offer your insight and encouragement to me. You’ve all given me a lot to think about. We have an interview with the bishop this Sunday to ask permission for DH to baptize our daughter later this year. We don’t expect that he will give permission based on our earlier experiences with him. But we have to try. We owe it to our daughter to do everything we can to try to make it happen.
Maybe higher up church leaders are understanding of Stage 4 Mormons, but from my experience, local leaders and average members think you’ve gone crazy. Just today my best friend felt compelled to make the comment that DH shouldn’t exercise the priesthood if he doesn’t believe its real. I see her point, and she’s certainly not alone in her opinion. I just feel that faith in Jesus Christ should trump faith in Joseph Smith. Unfortunately the only people who agree with me exist only in the cyber world.
Quote:Unfortunately the only people who agree with me exist only in the cyber world.
or are the quiet ones in your ward who agree but don’t challenge. There is a lot of power in the idea that “still waters run deep”.
Pearl Earring wrote:We have an interview with the bishop this Sunday to ask permission for DH to baptize our daughter later this year. We don’t expect that he will give permission based on our earlier experiences with him. But we have to try. We owe it to our daughter to do everything we can to try to make it happen.
I’d be interested to hear how this turns out for you.You might want to check out Pres Packer’s talk from last conference, and remind the bishop the apostles encourage the bonding experience between fathers and sons in these priesthood ordinances.
Quote:Another time I was in a distant city. After a conference we were ordaining and setting apart leaders. As we concluded, the stake president asked, “Can we ordain a young man to be an elder who is leaving for the mission field?” The answer, of course, was yes.
As the young man came forward, he motioned for three brethren to follow and stand in for his ordination.
I noticed on the back row a carbon copy of this boy, and I asked, “Is that your father?”
The young man said, “Yes.”
I said, “Your father will ordain you.”
And he protested, “But I’ve already asked another brother to ordain me.”
And I said, “Young man, your father will ordain you, and you’ll live to thank the Lord for this day.”
Then the father came forward.
Thank goodness he was an elder. Had he not been, he soon could have been! In the military they would call that a battlefield commission. Sometimes such things are done in the Church.
The father did not know how to ordain his son. I put my arm around him and coached him through the ordinance. When he was finished, the young man was an elder.
Then something wonderful happened. Completely changed, the father and son embraced. It was obvious that had never happened before.
The father, through his tears, said, “I didn’t get to ordain my other boys.”
Think how much more was accomplished than if another had ordained him, even an Apostle.
–
The Power of the Priesthood, President Boyd K. Packer, Ensign April 2010 I think there is a great emphasis on families from the last few conferences, and the church should be there to help bind the families together with ordinances like baptism, as it should be. That is, of course, if you and your husband want that.
Great talk. We covered this in priesthood mtg last week. My contribution was to point out that Packer NEVER uses the word “worthy” in the entire talk. Not once. — and he only uses the word “obedience” one time. It was pretty quiet in the room after i pointed this out – I think some “brethern” were not happy with my “insinuation”. Hopefully we (the church) will accept the talk as it was meant to be taken – including your bishop.
cwald wrote:My contribution was to point out that Packer NEVER uses the word “worthy” in the entire talk. Not once. — and he only uses the word “obedience” one time. It was pretty quiet in the room after i pointed this out – I think some “brethern” were not happy with my “insinuation”.
…and I bet you anything that the rest were quiet because what you said was VERY important and profound.
*Brian cheers for CWALD*
Awesome point! Love it! And it sounds like you did it just right.
I was really impressed with Packer’s talk as well. If miracles do happen, it was a miracle that DH and I both happened to be in the living room during that Saturday morning session. When we heard that story Elder Packer told we looked at each other with shock because we knew that this might be the piece of ‘evidence’ we needed to convince the bishop to see our point of view.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.