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SilentDawning wrote:
Why do you think all those miracles and visions have pretty much ceased? I know some people don’t talk about them (if they even occurred), but I personally don’t believe they are happening much anymore. I have had a lot of CLOSE friends in the church, and we have shared our experiences in the gospel. No one has ever claimed any kind of heavenly manifestation. They talk a lot about the spirit and spiritual experiences, but not much else.And people tend to have loose lips…
My personal flippant reason is that whatever it is was in the water (or the food) has been filtered out leaving a mundane reality…
I think it also has to do with frame of reference. There are a lot of things that we consider routine now that did not exist then (electricity for example) that would be miraculous by definition.
As part of that, I think that when we encounter something that does not fit into our paradigm (someone who got better who should have died), we are more likely to assign it to an “unknown natural phenomena to be explored and discovered by scientists” rather than the “hand of God” (though I don’t know that they are mutually exclusive).
SilentDawning wrote:
Why do you think all those miracles and visions have pretty much ceased? I know some people don’t talk about them (if they even occurred), but I personally don’t believe they are happening much anymore. I have had a lot of CLOSE friends in the church, and we have shared our experiences in the gospel. No one has ever claimed any kind of heavenly manifestation. They talk a lot about the spirit and spiritual experiences, but not much else.And people tend to have loose lips…
Back in “Ye Olden Days”, we used to herald those who heard voices and saw visions as holy. Now, we give them a psychiatric diagnosis, a few medications, lock them up in a mental “center for healing”…
In all seriousness, I think the rate of visions and heavenly manifestations is pretty consistent. In these times, we have exceptional, worldwide communication and documentation. We have a wealth of information at our fingertips, and can easily verify sources (pics or it didn’t happen).We’re also MUCH less superstitious, and much more skeptical than they were in Joseph Smith’s time. We’ve been exposed to plenty of instances where certain people have made extraordinary claims that have been debunked, and so we’re hesitant to take even at face value the spiritual phenomena we experience ourselves. We interpret our experiences differently.
I think this spoof of the drake equation applies, if you change “Alien Encounter” with Heavenly Manifestation:
[img=https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/the_flake_equation.png][/img] Note: I’m not claiming every reported miracle, heavenly manifestation, or vision is false. But given there are legitimate claims, it is against this backdrop of MANY illegitimate sources. In our times, we’re just able to realize this better.
SilentDawning wrote:
Why do you think all those miracles and visions have pretty much ceased?
I read a journal entry were Emma was sick. JS took her out and re-baptized her in the Mississippi. She felt better. The next day the journal entry reported that Emma was still sick and needed care all day. This passage especially makes me somewhat incredulous of the stories of miraculous healing (like the story of Joseph’s red handkerchief that was reportedly used to perform a healing).
Also, in reading from the accounts of Helen Mar Kimball later in life in the SLC valley it becomes apparent that medicine was primitive and that the speculated causes and effects of illnesses were very much entangled with superstition . Helen’s views on miracles and visions would be significantly out of place in the modern church.
So it sounds like you believe these manifestations etcetera probably never existed. Not that such things don’t exist in some quantity, but in a far less quantity than was reported. I have trouble believing them much. If you go your whole life, much if it in faithful living, and never experience something like that, it makes you wonder if it’s all made up.
People see things differently. They just do. Some people see thestrals, some people don’t. It only is an issue, ckinically, when it causes significant distress or serious harm to self or others. We medicate away “disorders” – and we are right to do so in many, many, many cases. I worry that we lose a lot, however, when we do so with conditions that aren’t truly harmful in practical terms. I hate to think how many visionary people we have muzzled over the last few decades and what we have lost as a result.
SilentDawning wrote:
If you go your whole life, much if it in faithful living, and never experience something like that, it makes you wonder if it’s all made up.
That’s another reason why we’d see so many false positives. People believe such experiences are linked to faithful living, which makes it all that much easier to interpret psycho-physiological phenomena as a heavenly manifestation, where there was none. Especially in the early 1800s, where EVERYONE was making those sort of claims. It’s like with the “Emperors’ New Clothes”. How many in the congregation wouldn’t admit the Emperor was naked, because they were ashamed? And how many honestly believed they just
maaayyybeeecould actually see the clothes? dande48 wrote:
SilentDawning wrote:
If you go your whole life, much if it in faithful living, and never experience something like that, it makes you wonder if it’s all made up.
That’s another reason why we’d see so many false positives. People believe such experiences are linked to faithful living, which makes it all that much easier to interpret psycho-physiological phenomena as a heavenly manifestation, where there was none. Especially in the early 1800s, where EVERYONE was making those sort of claims. It’s like with the “Emperors’ New Clothes”. How many in the congregation wouldn’t admit the Emperor was naked, because they were ashamed? And how many honestly believed they just
maaayyybeeecould actually see the clothes?
Add the cognitive dissonance that high commitment commandments like tithing, heavy callings etcetera creates, and I can see why it would be very threatening to someone NOT believe the clothes were invisible. I compare church commitment to the commitment women have to their young children. They go through 9 months of discomfort, painful labor, a painful recovery period, then sleepless nights etcetera — no wonder they are so committed to their children! They paid a big price (and the fact the baby is a helpless living being), but the pain they go through HAS to also increase commitment.
Roy wrote:
I’ve heard “keys to the ministering of angels” be interpreted to mean that the AP holders are the angels doing the ministering. So less ‘having the eligibility to have angles come down to minister to you’ and more ‘be the angel that ministers to another.’
It is therefore necessary to reinterpret what is meant by “Ministering of angels”.
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I don’t think it’s ever been quite clear at all. Angels with swords outside buildings. Healing ministries. Bringing in the investigators…
I don’t want to diss it, I just don’t know quite what the LDS means by this.
We were studying the restoration of the gospel and the “keys” or authority of the Priesthood this week. https://www.lds.org/ensign/2004/11/faith-and-keys?lang=eng ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.lds.org/ensign/2004/11/faith-and-keys?lang=eng One of the passages listed in this talk from President Eyring is actually a quote from Wilford Woodruff regarding the last time that Joseph Smith spoke to them as a full body of apostles before Nauvoo.
Quote:“On that occasion the Prophet Joseph rose up and said to us: ‘Brethren, I have desired to live to see this temple built. I shall never live to see it, but you will. I have sealed upon your heads all the keys of the kingdom of God. I have sealed upon you every key, power, principle that the God of heaven has revealed to me. Now, no matter where I may go or what I may do, the kingdom rests upon you.”
In conjunction, I looked up what the word “key” means in the standard dictionary.https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/keyhttps://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/key” class=”bbcode_url”> Key Definitions:
- instrument (physical object) to turn something (a bolt of a lock normally)- including various devices having the form or ability to complete that function.
- means of accessing an entrance, possession or control
- instrumental or deciding factor (the non-physical equivalent to definition 1.
- something that gives an explanation
- something that identifies or aids in identifying an interpretation, map legend or clue
- something that provides a solution (#3)
- something to be depressed by a finger to make something happen (a key for a keyboard)
- a system of tones and harmonies in music
So maybe the key religiously has always meant something to serve as a catalyst for something else to happen (i.e. Priesthood blessings) or to set a specific “tone” in life (i.e. temple worship). Authority to do something falls into it as we are taught, but it may not actually be the “key” indicator or deciding factor outside of administration authorization.
Why do you think people loaded the word “key” with so many meanings?
How could any of them live up to the legend of the prophet Joseph Smith, 2nd in greatness only to Christ? They couldn’t. They wouldn’t feel worthy. But maybe…with keys…given by the prophet himself…they could still believe in his greatness despite their flaws.
As nibbler often mentions…dumbo needed a feather to trust himself (even though he didn’t).
Keys also become a way of bringing the mystical into the physical world. Something tangible, can be passed on. Helps with order.
The meaning grows.
If only Joseph realized the power of the keys sooner.. a succession crisis could have been averted if they were better used as a symbol of power and authority.
But we learned from that…and now…keys make all the difference.
I can never remember which callings are AP and MP.
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