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I think this is a case where the same words are being interpreted differently by different people… otherwise I’d have a hard time telling someone what they feel is just flat out wrong. Everyone has their perspective and often my perspective makes me feel that way in church. Sure painting everyonein that light is unfair but my takeaway from that comment wasn’t that it was an attempt to disparage the entire membership of the church. I agree with the statement because most of my interactions with people in church feel shallow and forced. Yes, it takes two to tango. Yes, there has to be real effort on
mypart to make true friends. Still it feels alien when the only thing someone knows about you is your last name and they only know that because they’re looking to get something out of you. I’ve been in some frigid wards in the past. Can you tell.
Point taken, Nibbler, and do understand I don’t consider the majority of people at church to be my friends. I have long said that if you want to know who your friends are at church, quit going and you’ll quickly find out who they are and aren’t. The stark reality of it is that you will find that most aren’t and really only care about those that are there. Finding friends who except you as who you are while helping you to grow in the way you want to with your own goals and dreams is paramount in and out of the church. To many people try to bring you up to “their” standards without acknowledging or helping you with your own. I would t consider those or those you can be yourself around(like having to bite your lip more then 20% of the time on things you say in a polite manner) friends. Few things say this is not the place to be like “faking it until you make it”.
There are some nice people with deep relationships to be had. Finding them is much harder then outside the church in my experience though unless you fit the mold by nature.
You can stay in the church and set boundaries in a polite way if you are inclined. It’s usually bit that bad until CES, fireside, EFY, and conference. But ya, of a person calls you and wants something most or all of the time(in it outbid church) they SE not your friend.
Grover, I’m going to post a quick reply and follow up later – my kids and I are on the way out the door to see a movie. Regarding Mormons and environmentalism, don’t confuse the culture of some Mormons with the gospel. There is plenty in Mormon doctrine to support being wise stewards of the earth, even if not all Mormons currently see this as a priority.
I googled “Mormon environmental” and found this example of Mormons who do care about these things:
http://www.mesastewardship.org/about-mesa/statement-of-purpose/ I’ll be happy to reply in more detail later if you wish.
Best wishes
Okay, I am a little confused as I never call anyone without a reason even if the reason is just to hang out, and in my opinion this is asking something from them, their time. I call people for many reasons, to ask for something, to commiserate something, to find out what they have been up to but always with a purpose in mind when I call, I always thought I was valuing their and my time too much to just chit chat… I guess my problem is that I came away from reading this and thought, wow I have no friends. (probably true as I really am a bad friend as evidenced by the fact that I do not have “friends” that live long distances from me) Fwiw, I have LOTS of friends and lots of good friends – but I have very, very few really close friends who tell me their deepest secrets and with whom I share mine. It’s just not my personality. It’s different here, in a way, since the very purpose of this site includes the need to be open and honest about lots of things. You all know me about as well as anybody knows me. (For example, there is a man in my ward whom I respect greatly, but I just found out, after two years in the ward, that he has been a club golf pro and shop owner for years.) People talk to me all the time about their problems and thoughts, and they ask for advice all the time – but I’m just not the type of social person who creates deep friendships easily. Every personality test I’ve taken in my life (and I’ve taken a lot) has placed me right in the middle of whatever is being tested, without a dominant trait – and that is fairly rare. That helps in lots of important ways, but it also inhibits the type of connection people make who are very similar to each other.
How does that apply to this post?
I’ve learned to accept that about myself, and that is the biggest key to finding happiness and contentment and a place in any organization where I am not “typical”. I like almost everyone; almost everyone likes me. They might not call me when they think of someone to invite out to a social event, but that’s okay. I am friends ENOUGH with enough people that I can carve out a place that works for me.
Interestingly, I have to do the initial reaching out, even if it isn’t intimate or deep – and that is hard for many who are more introverted or less self-confident than I am.
“This feeling I can have, when I want it, how strong I want it and how inspiring I want it, all depends on my state of mind and heart – and it has not a ‘religious only’ dependancy. This feeling has different names for different people, in the church we call it the Spirit. Whether I’m inside or outside the church I can feel it however much I want. The church provides more opportunities to feel it just because the focus of the church IS to feel it. But really, it is all about how I think of things whether I feel it or not. I can have a fantastic spiritual experience just marveling at the magnificence of a tree – and it is the same feeling as I have in the church. So, I don’t think the Spirit is ‘religious’, I think it is a human condition that we all have the power to experience.” Sorry it has taken awhile to post a reply to your reply to my reply. I agree that the spirit can be felt anytime. I have also noticed in life though that the spirit hits more powerful during some moments than others. The most powerful is when I have helped someone else out, shared the gospel or hometeaching. Also I felt the spirit very strongly when my first child was born, during baptisms and in the celestial room and when I was set apart as a missionary. I do feel the spirit a little stronger during sacrament meeting than the rest of the week, though the feelings of the spirit are always there even if just subtle when I am out in nature or chilin with the family or friends. This difference in the intensity of the spirit tells me that the stronger I feel the spirit, the more important what I am doing is to God. I do not think the spirit is just here for our enjoyment and comfort, though the spirit is the comforter and that part of the job description. I think the spirit even more is a sort of positive reinforcement from God, or a ATA boy, to let me know to I am doing what I should be doing, or what am witnessing is dear to God, or to keep on doing what I am doing.
You mentioned that it bothers you in the church about how the missionaries act and how unqualified people are put in positions to make decisions that should be made by professionals. I completely agree about the missionaries. The way they break people down and pester them tell they join just to get the missionaries off their backs to me again is the doctrines of the world mixed with the way of God, or tactics of the sales world that is so prevalent in missionary work. I called statistical revelation when missionary feel over and over again that people are ready to be baptized when they are not. I do not think that this means that missionary is not guided from the top, it is, but I think it means it is time for the church to get this part of the house in order.
As far as the ecclesiastical leaders making decisions needed for the pros, I have mixed feelings on this. The problem is that many of the professionals make just as bad or worse decisions with their clients than the church leaders do. Granted these are not all mormon professionals but some of them are. Doctors that are little more than legal drug pushers and work for practices that are so profit driven that they spend no more than five minutes per patient. Counselors that tell people only what they want to hear so that they will keep getting their business and keep coming back for the meds, when these people really need to be told because of their own decisions they are screwing up their life and the meds only provide an escape from the problems they need to fix but are too out of it to take responsibility for their crap. These same clients purposely hide information from their therapists so they do not put themselves in a bad light. Whereas most Bishops, using the spirit of the discernment, would detect that something is not right and these people would need to get their spiritual lives in order which would then fix the big problems in their lives.
The thing that ecclesiastical leaders have that the professionals don’t the spirit of discernment. It is freaky how good some of them are. On my mission, it took me awhile to get my motive from that aspiring for leadership to one of truly being out there for the betterment of others. My mission president could discern immediately where my heart was when I did not even have to open my mouth, whether for good intent or not so much. I think many Priesthood leaders can do a better job than the professionals in regards to marriage counseling because they can bring the spirit in. Often with spouses who want to split, they are very much stuck in natural man mode and exposing the sins of their spouse mode and very lacking in the spirit. One effective thing I heard of Bishops doing is simply having him and the couple sing three or four hymns and then the couple does not feel like fighting anymore because the spirit has replaced their prideful feelings and they are very much more likely to take responsiblity for their own actions. On the other hand mistakes a number of Bishops I know make is that they automatically take the side of the spouse in their ward, if the couple is separated, instead of recognizing that everyone involved has played a big problem in the marriage falling apart. I feel that church leaders need and should get training in counseling and personality types, to understand people better and that this would help them to make more inspired decisions in a lot of cases. I don’t think that because the professionals lack the spirit of discernment in the same way that the Bishop has it, that this would actually be a step down-possibly. Yes, some improvements would definite help.
Thank you everyone for your comments!! You have given me a lot to think about. Just one comment I’d like to make. One of the things that is really hard about posting anything here (or anywhere) is trying to keep your emotions and irrational feelings out of posts so you don’t say anything that is funky just because you are hurting. One of my faults is that I always feel that the whole world (of the church) is against me so I usually make generalizations because of it. Of course, there are always exceptions and not everyone, or even most, are like this or that. It’s really nice to read people talking about the issues rather than the right or wrong with how people see things (in the spur of the moment as they write a post). I’m pretty sure a lot of posts are written because of reaching a breaking point. I know that is what made me write my first post
Cheers
I see various answers to your question that focus on “what do you believe?” I would suggest a different tack. I would focus on “how did your participation in the Church enrich your life?” You were a “golden” prospect and stayed active for decades. What did you get out of it? How did it feed you? And then what changed? If your reminiscing reminds you of times and feelings you really valued and what to recapture then we have a discussion about how you get back there. If not, then we have a discussion centered on “where do we go from here?” I went through exactly this and I faced the same decision. My answer was to embrace the gospel (and the Church, warts and all). When I made that decision and then acted on it my perceptions changed. All of the shortcomings that I used to see in the Church took on a different hue. Now I see them as the results of weak men (and women) trying to carry a load far too heavy, trying to accomplish a work far too grand and inevitably falling short. Now I applaud them for trying rather than deride them for failing, even when their failures inconvenience me.
As an example, I received a calling and accepted it. I was really looking forward to it. A week or so later I was told that I wouldn’t be set apart for that calling. Another gentleman in the Ward felt that he should be fulfilling that role and approached the Bishop to demand it. They called him to it. That’s all I really know. I don’t know that he bullied the Bishop or that the Bishop simply reconsidered. I don’t know that he performed any better than I would have, or any worse. I don’t know how much divine inspiration was involved or if it fell to simple expediency. I do know that it doesn’t matter. Everybody involved was doing what he thought he should, striving to do what he thought was right. The only evil in all of that was if I had allowed myself to get angry, or hurt, or both. There were other callings available. I ended up serving in other ways.
Quote:[/b]You know, I don’t know whether people would call me unlucky or fortunate, but I don’t actually care about what other people think of me. I care about what I think of myself, of course. I have set a very high bar for myself and I am determined not to let myself down. Unfortunately, I then think a lot of other members would see me as dangerous. I didn’t used to be. Before I was very much a people pleaser, so I guess then I was perfect for the church. Over the years I’ve just grown up and allowed myself to become the true me rather than what I think I should be.
My family would read the above and assume that I wrote it.
Spirituality and religion. In LDS culture, we do not often differentiate between being spiritual and being religious. The first is a relationship with a higher power. The second is a relationship with an organized religion. They are very different things. As a people, it is easy to get caught up in religious matters and suddenly realize that we are spiritually starving — And just desperate for something of substance. We start looking for something that is filling as we are desperate for nourishment. At first and second and third impulse, I just wanted to walk away from the church and go find peace and joy and happiness in my life. To find nourishment.
And then I prayed. And I feel like I still need to be somehow associated with the LDS church. I’m trying to figure THAT out.
Is the church true? That is an excellent question that I cannot answer right now. But this site has helped me to sift through my thoughts and feelings.
I hope you find it equally helpful.
Welcome.
Quote:In LDS culture, we do not often differentiate between being spiritual and being religious. The first is a relationship with a higher power. The second is a relationship with an organized religion. They are very different things.
This.
:thumbup: I agree with Ray’s “This” :thumbup: I’ve reached this conclusion for me as well. Strangely, it was Steve Jobs who really sealed the deal for me. After he died, there was a quote in which he said:
“If you find yourself doing something that makes you unhappy for too many days in a row, it’s time to make changes”.
Not necessarily quit, but make changes.
For some people, the church program stops generating happiness after a while. Church leaders are famous for blaming it on you personally, but I disagree. There are times when it just gets onerous and tedious. In these situations, you can further your relationship with God by seeking other character-building opportunities, while redefining the extent to which you are involved in the church. The Church relationship does not need to define your relationship with God. They can be two different things — just like Martin Luther said.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:In LDS culture, we do not often differentiate between being spiritual and being religious. The first is a relationship with a higher power. The second is a relationship with an organized religion. They are very different things.
This.
:thumbup: I like this, too. I refer to it as separating the church and the gospel, but this is probably a better and clearer way to convey at least part of that.
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