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Ann wrote:amateurparent wrote:
I wish the church would teach a script for how to have a real conversation about religion — including history, doctrine, and personal beliefs
Sunday School, seminary, institute?Conversation implies two sides. Those are preaching classes.
I admire your desire to do no harm – but I think elements of the letter, as written, can’t help but cause harm (or tension or offense or . . .) I would remove EVERY negative description, frankly, in order to minimize things that others simply can’t understand. For example, people do feel the Spirit in church – or find comfort and peace – and feel closer to God – and get a needed break from every day life – etc. They just can’t see the thestrals, if you remember the Harry Potter analogy I used in a post, so they can’t help but dismiss or argue or try to reconvert.
I simply would say that I no longer beleive much of the central aspects and don’t feel comfortable with an official calling where I am expected to teach or testify about them. I then would add all the other things you mentioned.
Finally, I LOVE the suggestion to talk with him and not share a written manifesto. What is said and heard isn’t eternal; what is in writing can’t be erased or modified. If you need to give him something in writing, I would suggest doing so in a private conversation (“Here is what I wrote.”) and keeping it after it is read.
As one of the people who don’t advocate naked candor with the leaders at any level, I will give my reasons for NOT sharing your beliefs with your Bishop. 1. You lose options to change your mind in the future.Who knows the future holds. There is no way I would have predicted my life the way it is right now, professionally, in the church, in my marriage. Life has a way of hitting you different ways, even when you are totally sure of something. Keep your options open to believe anything you want at any time, with full blessings.
This, in my view, is an act of humility. It acknowledges that we don’t know everything, even whether the church is true, or not. Things added up pretty well when I was TBM, and they add up poorly now that my “eyes are opened”. Who knows what will happen to me in the future.
2. You don’t know how he or future leaders will react.They are all over the map in their orthodoxy. We’ve had unorthodox Bishops post here occasionally, and we know many horror stories about black and while Bishops that “make you behave” if you want full blessings after you “come out”. And then how future leaders will react as your story gets handed down…in a mutated form.
3. What you propose is NOT as reversible as you say it is.Leaders will hold this against you for the longest time, even if they come off as understanding. Your message will also get distilled and mutated into something so basic it is wrong. We’ve all heard people explain the less-activity of someone as a result of the fact “they got offended and left”, when in fact there was a heart-wrenching story that deserves empathy and compassion. They will simplify it into something simple and your personal story is therefore trodden underfoot, or “consumed upon lusts” so to speak. Do you want that distilled, inaccurate story of what happened to you circulating meetings with BPs, their Stake Presidency members, and PEC? I call that laying pearls in the wrong place.
4
. Remember, there is very little confidentiality in the church, even if leaders say there is in fact confidentiality. Even if people seem to be trustworthy, they let things slip, and information tends to flow upward very easily. leaders are far more loyal to the upper hierarchy than they are to the members below. Been there, all the way up to SP meetings as an Exec Sec, so I know. 4.
Who knows what your wife will do in the future. I live month to month with my wife’s orientation toward my “faith”, and it could turn around at any time depending on what she hears at church, who she listens to, whether our children are getting married in the temple (awakening former TBM attitudes about husbands needing to be active and TR-worthy) or what her family says. Also, if our relationship takes a temporal downturn, that could weaken the relationship since the church part is not 100%. So, rather than pee in the pool, keep the church a place that you can leave alone. Keep that part as strong as possible in case you need it to keep your marriage together. Be free for you to come back to at any time, even in your current state of belief. Be content to post here and in your journal about your feelings. This is the place for naked authenticity.
5. I don’t see coming out as serving a great purpose.Sure, you are being authentic, but that is for a moment — then you have to live with the fall out. It’s like posting something personal on the internet — it gets copied, and you can never take it back. You can always refuse callings without everyone knowing the root of it. Ask us how to do it here and you’ll get a ton of good answers… 6. P
eople will treat you like you are inactive— I know that. Former friends will be uncomfortable. 7. I
get a quiet kind of pleasure now in knowing that I hold unorthodox perspectives, but still manage to be valid in our Ward in certain circumstances.I have learned to navigate the tension between non-acceptance of church culture and involvement in the Ward. And this is a source of self-regard for me, in a healthy way. I didn’t take the easy way out — by telling everyone how I feel, I managed to navigate the situations that come up in a way that preserves both my relationship with the church, my wife, and my TBM offspring, and my own personal desires regarding church activity. There is no surrender on either relationship at this point.
Out of that tension comes creativity, the pleasure of asserting myself in a positive way, when previously I felt I had to do EVERYTHING the church asked me, even when I really did not like it. As well as self-respect for finding my own path within Mormonism — the road less traveled, so to speak.
Anyway, we don’t ever want to push anyone to do anything in particular here — if you come out, I will certainly post suggestions on how to handle any fall out if that happens. But I honestly think it is harmful to be frank about issues of belief at the local level in a church built on faith. I’ve seen the stories here on StayLDS and other sites.
Keep your options open. In Chess, we call it “mobility theory”. I once beat a person better than me at chess by simply moving my chess pieces in a way that maximized my mobility on the chessboard. I had no strategy beyond my next move, which was to increase my cruising range on the board. My opponent was confused as he thought he knew my patterns from the past. But moving to maximize mobility put me in a winning situation. Apply mobility theory to this situation…
And that means not sharing anything locally.
SD
Thanks so much for the comments and things for me to think of. I wasn’t planning on writing a letter. I was going to do it face to face, with maybe a small outline.
I do agree with the comments to remove all negativity. I didn’t even see I was saying it that way – more of trying to say WHY I want to back away a bit.
DA – I agree that TBM’s have their way of thinking about those that leave. I know the bishop well and he knows me well. I have seen him be disappointed, but keep friendships with others that have left. In fact I might add that I do feel bad of pushing this burden of even finding a replacement for me vacating my current position as I know it will make work for him. I am NOT trying to sway his beliefs. I even want to clearly state that I realize the church is working for him and I support that. Do what you feel God is telling you to do – and I am doing the same.
I heard a podcast that talks about how the mind works. One thing that I see over and over again that seems to be true is that the mind does not like things not making sense. If something does not make sense, the brain is almost in panic mode trying to find some way to get back to things making sense. That is why cognitive dissonance is so unnerving. So it is almost natural that a TBM has to figure out a reason why someone would leave, but they (most) can’t see “they really just don’t see it as true” as a possible option. They are convinced that COULD NOT be an option or just don’t want to consider that possibility. When I think of it that way, it seems a rather natural response.
AP – I think you have already told me much of this, but I am glad you eloquently expressed it here so others can see. Thanks for the wise words.
Minyan Man – I will certainly consider the “over lunch”, but that can be hard (he travels all over town for his work). Also, I want it to be rather short and sweet.
Ray – I love your prefect summary of “I no longer believe much of the central aspects and don’t feel comfortable with an official calling where I am expected to teach or testify about them.” I feel like my English teacher just used a bit of red pencil correcting the paper I turned in! I am going to use that – and as I mentioned above I will talk with him, not give him a letter.
SD – You give some really good food for thought. Some of the very issues I was hoping to draw out. I will re-read it again and maybe respond to some of the specific points you bring up. There are some core assumptions that I think we differ on, but let me think on these points for a while.
BTW – I assume the SP will be calling me really soon after talking with the bishop asking for me to come talk with him. I am about 90% sure of that. In fact I think the bishop might not have the inclination to get into any of it with me. The SP might feel it is his duty. I have known him since my teens and he isn’t a BRM type. There are those in the stake that have gone on Infants on Thrones and many other podcasts and they are still on the roles.
LookingHard wrote:I wasn’t planning on writing a letter. I was going to do it face to face,
with maybe a small outline. Oh sure, that never gets out of hand.
“If you’ll turn to page 17 in your packet…well…you might be able to see the chart better here on the screen…”
My own perspective is similar to what some others have expressed. I don’t like declarations. Life is more fluid than that. It’s another reason I don’t like F&T meeting. LookingHard wrote:So my main question is how to come out to others, and specifically to my bishop.
LookingHard…I think you have to start doing something so you aren’t just acting like nothing is different and then it bugs you each sunday.Keep letting go of the things that bug you or cause you angst. Get rid of the calling, with a quick ask from the bishop that you just can’t do it anymore…that it is exhausting or something you feel you should mention to him without getting into it.
You’ve had 3+ years of thinking it through to progress to where you’re at. I’m just not sure you can sum that up in a 15min chat with him. Just do what you need to do, without needing to explain it to anyone. It’s between you and God.
First – a big THANKS SD for sharing this. As mom3 says, it helps to write it out. Your points help me figure out more what I am feeling. I appreciate you (and the others) taking the time to even reply.
SilentDawning wrote:As one of the people who don’t advocate naked candor with the leaders at any level, I will give my reasons for NOT sharing your beliefs with your Bishop.
1. You lose options to change your mind in the future.Who knows the future holds. There is no way I would have predicted my life the way it is right now, professionally, in the church, in my marriage. Life has a way of hitting you different ways, even when you are totally sure of something. Keep your options open to believe anything you want at any time, with full blessings.
This, in my view, is an act of humility. It acknowledges that we don’t know everything, even whether the church is true, or not. Things added up pretty well when I was TBM, and they add up poorly now that my “eyes are opened”. Who knows what will happen to me in the future.
What options am I turning my back on? I am saying that at this time I can’t say that I believe. What is so “undoable” about that? I really don’t expect to be coming back, but if God tells me to – I will.
SilentDawning wrote:2. You don’t know how he or future leaders will react.They are all over the map in their orthodoxy. We’ve had unorthodox Bishops post here occasionally, and we know many horror stories about black and while Bishops that “make you behave” if you want full blessings after you “come out”. And then how future leaders will react as your story gets handed down…in a mutated form.
My kids are almost grown up and I would give more weight to this if I had young kids and the complexity this adds with baptisms and such.To put it bluntly – I don’t feel any bishop has any say over my salvation in any way. I don’t give them that anymore. My connection with God is between God and I. I am struggling to care what any so-called leader cares about me. I have accepted I am not going to attend any of my kids sealings if they decide to do that (which I will support them in that if they want that). I don’t think I am in jeopardy of being excommunicated. I just struggling to care at all about leaders current or future.
SilentDawning wrote:3. What you propose is NOT as reversible as you say it is.Leaders will hold this against you for the longest time, even if they come off as understanding. Your message will also get distilled and mutated into something so basic it is wrong. We’ve all heard people explain the less-activity of someone as a result of the fact “they got offended and left”, when in fact there was a heart-wrenching story that deserves empathy and compassion. They will simplify it into something simple and your personal story is therefore trodden underfoot, or “consumed upon lusts” so to speak. Do you want that distilled, inaccurate story of what happened to you circulating meetings with BPs, their Stake Presidency members, and PEC? I call that laying pearls in the wrong place.
If I take the alternate and fade away, they will talk about me. So why is me being honest and simply saying, “I don’t believe” so horrendous if they do say that behind my back? If they are going to say worse, shame on them. I can’t live my life hoping someone does not gossip about me. That is no way to live.
SilentDawning wrote:4
. Remember, there is very little confidentiality in the church, even if leaders say there is in fact confidentiality. Even if people seem to be trustworthy, they let things slip, and information tends to flow upward very easily. leaders are far more loyal to the upper hierarchy than they are to the members below. Been there, all the way up to SP meetings as an Exec Sec, so I know.
Yep. I know the word will get around. I am fine with that. Like I mentioned on my last post, I assume within 24 hours of talking with my bishop, the SP will know about it.
SilentDawning wrote:4.
Who knows what your wife will do in the future. I live month to month with my wife’s orientation toward my “faith”, and it could turn around at any time depending on what she hears at church, who she listens to, whether our children are getting married in the temple (awakening former TBM attitudes about husbands needing to be active and TR-worthy) or what her family says. Also, if our relationship takes a temporal downturn, that could weaken the relationship since the church part is not 100%. So, rather than pee in the pool, keep the church a place that you can leave alone. Keep that part as strong as possible in case you need it to keep your marriage together. Be free for you to come back to at any time, even in your current state of belief. Be content to post here and in your journal about your feelings. This is the place for naked authenticity.
OK. On this one I think you have a point. Others have mentioned that I probably need to talk with my wife a bit. I might not do what she wants me to do, but I should probably consult with her first.
SilentDawning wrote:5. I don’t see coming out as serving a great purpose.Sure, you are being authentic, but that is for a moment — then you have to live with the fall out. It’s like posting something personal on the internet — it gets copied, and you can never take it back. You can always refuse callings without everyone knowing the root of it. Ask us how to do it here and you’ll get a ton of good answers…
I am still trying to figure out the fallout. I hear many people leaving the church and saying things are going great. What is it about “stayingLDS”? I realize some have issue that somewhat force them. I think that is at the core – I WANT TO LEAVE THIS CHURCH. I am on StayLDS because I tried to stay LDS for almost 4 years now since my shelf broke. I think this coming clean starts the process of leaving. Maybe due to my wife I will always be the semi-active guy married to the active Sister Lookinghard in the ward and I will never really fully separate myself from the church due to that.But to put it bluntly, if in the end it is the final straw in my marriage, I will only be upset that I waited so long.
I guess I would have to answer your statement of “I don’t see coming out as serving a great purpose” with, “I don’t see a great purpose trying to stay.”
SilentDawning wrote:6. P
eople will treat you like you are inactive— I know that. Former friends will be uncomfortable. I expect that. I am not looking forward to it. Then I guess they were not true friends. I will have to go work to find other friends which will be hard.
SilentDawning wrote:7. I
get a quiet kind of pleasure now in knowing that I hold unorthodox perspectives, but still manage to be valid in our Ward in certain circumstances.I have learned to navigate the tension between non-acceptance of church culture and involvement in the Ward. And this is a source of self-regard for me, in a healthy way. I didn’t take the easy way out — by telling everyone how I feel, I managed to navigate the situations that come up in a way that preserves both my relationship with the church, my wife, and my TBM offspring, and my own personal desires regarding church activity. There is no surrender on either relationship at this point.
Keep your options open. In Chess, we call it “mobility theory”. I once beat a person better than me at chess by simply moving my chess pieces in a way that maximized my mobility on the chessboard. I had no strategy beyond my next move, which was to increase my cruising range on the board. My opponent was confused as he thought he knew my patterns from the past. But moving to maximize mobility put me in a winning situation. Apply mobility theory to this situation… And that means not sharing anything locally.
I guess I can’t say I like playing chess. It sounds like you get a bit of a kick out of it. That is great. I go to church and I often feel like it is 3 hours of having duct tape on my mouth with a few nice social interactions in between.
SilentDawning wrote:Anyway, we don’t ever want to push anyone to do anything in particular here — if you come out, I will certainly post suggestions on how to handle any fall out if that happens. But I honestly think it is harmful to be frank about issues of belief at the local level in a church built on faith. I’ve seen the stories here on StayLDS and other sites.
You are not pushing. I asked for some open feedback and I appreciate that you took the time to think about it and document your perspective.
Another option?The only other option that seems to be on the table is to ask for a release, don’t go into it much on the way. Then turn down callings, stop going to priesthood meeting and other meetings, and try to fade. I am sure will at some point get cornered and asked really what is going on. Then I am back to right where I am now. Do I squirm out and say nothing substantial, or do I tell them I don’t believe anymore? That would be a bit less “dramatic”. I just don’t quite see much benefit from that.
I think at the core of me wanting to come a bit more clean gets to one point. I have read some on the top regrets that people voice when they are dying. The #1 is,
Quote:I wish I’d had the courage to live a life true to myself, not the life others expected of me.
I read that and look at my remaining 2 or 3 decades of my life and I want to move on. I don’t want to live my life like I am now.
Quote:I think this coming clean starts the process of leaving.
Orliving,even if you don’t leave. In big or small ways, and always trying to minimize distress around me, coming clean-“er” has been a good thing.
LookingHard wrote:I don’t want to live my life like I am now.
I keep hearing this tone in your messages and I still say you should listen to that voice.I do still see wonderful reasons for me to stay. I liked today’s post at Wheat and Tares about religious identity [
hereIt may not be the same for you. If you just be honest with yourself and others, you can’t go wrong. Nothing will avoid all the problems from it…and nothing will create all the problems of from it…and nothing is irreversible. You’re a good guy.
There have been many good comments made here already and I don’t think there’s much I can add. As Nibbler pointed out, I’m not going to try to convince you otherwise because “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.” As one who does hold his cards close to his vest and didn’t attend church for an extended period of time I will reiterate what I have told you and others before – no good comes of what you are about to do. The choice is still yours.
LH, I’m hearing that internal struggle that you’ve been dealing with for years. Do I come out, or not? And, if I do come out, how far? It’s obvious that you’ve put a LOT of thought into this. It sounds like you’ve got a very close relationship with your bishop, and I think that’s in your favor. You can just sit down and talk to each other without hiding anything. It sounds like you’re looking for some relief from keeping this to yourself. Personally, I think you’re making a good decision.
Over the past four years, I’ve ‘come out’ to three different bishops. And, I didn’t regret any of those. The first time, I was serving as the Executive Secretary when I talked to the bishop, and had a conversation very similar to what you’ve laid out in your explanation. He had a son who had just left the church, so he was relieved to hear me say that I still planned on coming to church and holding a calling, and working on my own testimony. I didn’t want to be a bitter, ex-mormon. I told him, I’d be happy to serve in the primary, since they were teaching the Old Testament that year. He released me from my calling as the Executive Secretary and put me right into the primary. A couple of years later, that bishop was released, and we had a new bishop who called me in to ask about renewing my temple recommend, since the SP was pushing bishoprics to get everybody a TR if it had expired. So, I went through the whole story with him. He was very understanding and even shared some of the doctrines that he struggles with. I told him I didn’t want a temple recommend, but he told me that he’d fill one out for me and he signed it, and told me he’d hold it in his desk in case I wanted to come back and sign it myself. He kept me in the primary, until we were coming up on teaching the BofM, when I asked to be released because I didn’t feel comfortable teaching that. I was released with no questions, because he already understood the situation. I moved to a new ward about six months ago, and came out to my new bishop, leading up to my daughter’s baptism. It was a fantastic experience. The bishop really made an effort to get to know how I felt and we had a sincere conversation that lasted well over an hour about my concerns. He allowed me to baptize my daughter. Coming out won’t guarantee that the bishop will bar you from ever performing any kind of ordinance in the future. Having doubts about the church is not a sin. I know there is a lot of leadership roulette, and I recognize that I may have just gotten lucky three times, and that another bishop may have reacted very differently. But, it sounds like you know your bishop well enough to have some kind of idea of how he’s going to respond.
In my own personal experience, talking with the bishop (and family members, and friends, and ward members) has been a cleansing experience. It has helped my marriage significantly, as my wife has seen me put myself out there and be honest about where I’m at with things. And, she doesn’t feel like she has to keep the whole thing a secret. Way back when I made the decision to stop going to the temple, I felt a burden lifted. When I decided to stop wearing garments, out of respect for the meaning that they have to others, I felt less hypocritical and felt another burden lifted. As I’ve shared my doubts and concerns with my bishops, I’ve had positive experiences all around. I’m still holding a calling, as the ward’s service coordinator. But where it’s helped the most has been in my marriage. My marriage almost ended because of my FC, but the more open I’ve been about it, the more pressure it has taken off of my wife. And she’s been able to see that everybody I’ve talked with about it has been open and supportive, and it’s kind of given her the ability to be forgiving and supportive as well.
Again, everybody’s experience will be completely different. But, I think you’ve put a ton of thought into this, and I think talking with your wife about how to talk to your bishop would be a great place to start. This is your own journey. What will you regret more; coming clean and possibly having a negative experience, or keeping it to yourself and keeping the status quo? Only you can answer that question.
LookingHard wrote:One of the heartbreaking ones they mentioned was both a father and a son they both knew and worked with. Both of these two contacted them independently and both said that they were struggling, but couldn’t talk to anybody in their ward OR THEIR FAMILY. That is just wrong wrong wrong.
Shel Silverstein wrote:
She had blue skin,And so did he.
He kept it hid
And so did she.
They searched for blue
Their whole life through,
Then passed right by-
And never knew.
nibbler wrote:LookingHard wrote:One of the heartbreaking ones they mentioned was both a father and a son they both knew and worked with. Both of these two contacted them independently and both said that they were struggling, but couldn’t talk to anybody in their ward OR THEIR FAMILY. That is just wrong wrong wrong.
Shel Silverstein wrote:
She had blue skin,And so did he.
He kept it hid
And so did she.
They searched for blue
Their whole life through,
Then passed right by-
And never knew.
That poem makes me blue.
LookingHard wrote:I heard a podcast that talks about how the mind works. One thing that I see over and over again that seems to be true is that the mind does not like things not making sense. If something does not make sense, the brain is almost in panic mode trying to find some way to get back to things making sense. That is why cognitive dissonance is so unnerving. So it is almost natural that a TBM has to figure out a reason why someone would leave, but they (most) can’t see “they really just don’t see it as true” as a possible option. They are convinced that COULD NOT be an option or just don’t want to consider that possibility. When I think of it that way, it seems a rather natural response.
This really was at the heart of my assumptive world collapse. I had built a framework in my mind that more or less explained how things work. It included a heavy dose of the just world hypothesis. When it all came crumbling around me my mind began to rebuild almost immediately. There was no option to stay in the wasteland. I was compelled to move forward. I remember thinking at one moment that I did not want my new assumptive world to be vulnerable do a similar catastrophe. I therefore hit upon that God’s love/favor for us does not influence our worldly circumstances. This is a major cornerstone of my current assumptive reality. Unfortunately, our church is very much a church of blessings/miracles/prosperity gospel. This puts me and the church at odds on a fundamental level.
amateurparent wrote:Do expect a few ward members to ask you very pointed questions and then visibly flinch when you give a gentle but nuanced answer. Do expect people to start acting as if you have moved.
Culturally, it is acceptable to be inactive. It is not acceptable to question doctrine or history. Members learn how to share the gospel and how to handle being attacked. Too often, those are the only two scripts they know.
I remember a very kind member of the SP saying that the “church is perfect, but the members are not”. I later asked him what he meant by the church being perfect. How could an organization that continues to change be perfect? After a conversation in which he showed concern for my faith several times, he ended that he is just a simple man with a simple faith. He could have easily said that “perfect” was not the appropriate word – but instead he fell back on the “being attacked” and bearing testimony script.
More on point to the OP. I personally strive to maintain a sustainable level of involvement with the church. This for me does not include tithing payment or attending regularly (I am actually ok with SM because there is no audience participation). My acceptable reasons for not doing these is that 1) the death of my daughter hurt my faith in the promised blessings of tithing payment and 2) I work on Sundays. This does paint me as a person with struggling, raw, or weak faith and can invite some level of patronizing. I just find this preferable to the circle the wagons/ defend from the apostate reaction.
1) I do this to keep my options open. I have baptized both of my children in this situation. It is also important to me to be in my son’s priesthood line of authority just as I received the priesthood from my dad (and from his father before him). In a strange way – this feels like my son’s birthright. Does it matter if it is not real if it ties the generations together?
2) I do this to stay connected to people I care about. For better or for worse, church affiliation is a quick and dirty way of measuring belonging in many relationships. I feel that many (including family/extended family) would feel that by no longer believing that I am somehow turning my metaphorical back on our association together. It is not the frank talk with my bishop that I dread, it is having the same conversation over and over and over with different people that I care about and with each conversation seeing the ties that bind us together get a little thinner – a little more brittle.
I could see these reasons being less potent as I age. Eventually the kids will grow up, grandparents and even parents will die, and aunts, uncles, and cousins will have less and less contact. Because of that, I do understand that what works for me and motivates me might not necessarily work for you.
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