- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
My post-Mo husband had lunch with our Bishop today. They began developing a non-religious working relationship a few months ago. They call each other by first names. My husband asked to be taken off a Ministering list. With no fanfare or fight, it was done. The conversation covered abundant diverse topics including LGBTQ, God, Bishoping, etc.
It was a total no guilt discussion. On the subject of LGBTQ our Bishop won’t let anyone speak disparagingly or dismissively of members who find themselves in any of those letters. (I believe we have a couple of people in our ward who are).
On marriage counseling – it’s not his job.
On church time we all need to cut back.
On being a believer – not required. Friends first. Belief second.
There is a lot that is discouraging these days. I thought a small happy spark might help. Keep your eye’s and hearts open for the good guys.
Sounds like your ward won the lottery! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: mom3 wrote:
On being a believer – not required. Friends first. Belief second.
Love this. Love it all.Marriage counseling? Aren’t bishops supposed to smooth troubled waters or try to? There are some good guys out there, I know one similar to yours. Sounds like you have a gem, thanks for sharing. SamBee wrote:
Marriage counseling? Aren’t bishops supposed to smooth troubled waters or try to?
Who says? I don’t think the handbook (handbook 1) actually says so. I don’t think it says much about counseling. I’ll ask my friend who has access.
I think that unless the bishop happens to be a trained/licensed marriage counselor he has no business do it or trying to. FWIW, a neighboring ward did once have a bishop who is a licensed counselor specializing in marriage counseling and he actually refused to do it for members of his ward, but would refer them to an associate.
I think the idea of bishop as counselor is something that has crept in from other Christian denominations where the priests/pastors are trained counselors. “Ministers” are therefore expected to counsel. I don’t personally know any bishop who liked doing it. I also think our own culture of bishops/SPs/GAs giving “spiritual” counsel has bled over into the secular realm.
Were I ever to be called as bishop (very unlikely) I’d hope to be much more like Mom’s bishop.
DarkJedi wrote:
SamBee wrote:
Marriage counseling? Aren’t bishops supposed to smooth troubled waters or try to?
Who says? I don’t think the handbook (handbook 1) actually says so. I don’t think it says much about counseling. I’ll ask my friend who has access.
Handbook 1, Section 7.2. I’ll try to strip out relevant portions to avoid posting the entire section.
Quote:7.2.1 General GuidelinesStake presidents and bishops counsel stake and ward members who seek spiritual guidance, who have weighty personal problems, who have doctrinal questions, or who have committed serious transgressions. … [snip]
[snip]
The stake president and bishop are entitled to the discernment and inspiration necessary to be spiritual advisers and temporal counselors to ward members who need such help. They should prepare spiritually before counseling a member by seeking the power of discernment and the guidance of the Spirit. This guidance usually comes as impressions, thoughts, or feelings. The Spirit often prompts leaders to remember teachings from the scriptures and from latter-day prophets.
… [snip]
If the stake president or bishop does not feel prepared to counsel a member, he schedules another appointment. Between appointments he seeks guidance through study, prayer, and, if necessary, fasting. He may also confer with his priesthood leader.
Quote:7.2.5 Marriage, Divorce, and SeparationNo priesthood officer is to counsel a person whom to marry. Nor should he counsel a person to divorce his or her spouse. Those decisions must originate and remain with the individual.
When a marriage ends in divorce, or if a husband and wife separate, they should always receive counseling from Church leaders. One or both may also need Church discipline if they have committed serious transgressions in connection with the divorce or separation.
A member who is separated from his or her spouse or is going through a divorce should be counseled not to date until the divorce decree has become final according to law.
Quote:7.2.6 Professional CounselingIn addition to the inspired help of Church leaders, members may need professional counseling. In the United States and Canada, stake presidents and bishops may contact LDS Family Services to identify resources to provide such counseling in harmony with gospel principles ([contact info redacted]). Outside the United States and Canada, stake presidents may contact the Area Presidency for guidance.
Quote:7.2.1 General GuidelinesThe stake president and bishop are entitled to the discernment and inspiration necessary to be spiritual advisers and temporal counselors to ward members who need such help. They should prepare spiritually before counseling a member by seeking the power of discernment and the guidance of the Spirit. This guidance usually comes as impressions, thoughts, or feelings. The Spirit often prompts leaders to remember teachings from the scriptures and from latter-day prophets.
THIS. This right here causes a lot of problems. I think this, and statements like these, make Church leaders feel like the spirit qualifies them to act in a capacity they are not qualified to do… to say whatever pops into their head and claim it as the word and will of God. dande48 wrote:
Quote:7.2.1 General GuidelinesThe stake president and bishop are entitled to the discernment and inspiration necessary to be spiritual advisers and temporal counselors to ward members who need such help. They should prepare spiritually before counseling a member by seeking the power of discernment and the guidance of the Spirit. This guidance usually comes as impressions, thoughts, or feelings. The Spirit often prompts leaders to remember teachings from the scriptures and from latter-day prophets.
THIS. This right here causes a lot of problems. I think this, and statements like these, make Church leaders feel like the spirit qualifies them to act in a capacity they are not qualified to do… to say whatever pops into their head and claim it as the word and will of God.
Totally agree. Too much “inspiration” is nothing more than personal opinion. I honestly think the church could be sued for providing counseling by unqualified counselors. Spiritual counseling (pray more, read more scripture, do more service) is one thing, serious mental health counseling, which would include marriage counseling, is another thing entirely.
Thanks for the research, Nibbler. My friend would probably not have been as thorough.
Back to the OP, it’s a good thing there are bishops like Mom’s who understand this. There are probably more than we know. Unfortunately I still believe them to be in the minority even anecdotally observing my own stake.
Quote:Back to the OP, it’s a good thing there are bishops like Mom’s who understand this. There are probably more than we know. Unfortunately I still believe them to be in the minority even anecdotally observing my own stake.
My husband said the very same thing to our Bishop.
We haven’t always had this. The dice could have rolled a lot of different ways. Right now is a sweet spot. We are both super aware of this.
mom3 wrote:
My post-Mo husband had lunch with our Bishop today. They began developing a non-religious working relationship a few months ago.They call each other by first names. My husband asked to be taken off a Ministering list. With no fanfare or fight, it was done. The conversation covered abundant diverse topics including LGBTQ, God, Bishoping, etc.
It was a total no guilt discussion. On the subject of LGBTQ our Bishop won’t let anyone speak disparagingly or dismissively of members who find themselves in any of those letters. (I believe we have a couple of people in our ward who are).
On marriage counseling – it’s not his job.
On church time we all need to cut back.
On being a believer – not required. Friends first. Belief second.
There is a lot that is discouraging these days. I thought a small happy spark might help. Keep your eye’s and hearts open for the good guys.
At the risk of being cynical, I do you think the BP might have just been saying what he has to in order to keep a relationship with your husband?
I agree with what the bishop says though. I don’t want ever for religion to come between my relationships with other people. Unless they cross lines of personal safety or something, or I have to avoid them for my own self-protection.
SilentDawning wrote:
At the risk of being cynical, I do you think the BP might have just been saying what he has to in order to keep a relationship with your husband?
Would this really be a bad thing? To show empathy and understanding, in order to maintain a relationship with disaffected members? If he was trying to use the friendship to call to repentance, convert, and encourage reactivation, it’d be one thing. But this seems more like friendship for friendship’s sake.
I say what I have to say (and don’t say what I can’t say) to keep friendships with pretty much everyone. Ulterior motives are something else, but being somewhat discrete and discerning in my relationships with others is one reason I am at peace with myself and most others. I don’t start fights or arguments unless the issue is so serious I feel I have no other choice. That happens occasionally, but it is rare.
We can expect entirely too much from our bishops. I know as a young married person I felt that we were supposed to go to the bishop with our marriage troubles. The sweet old man asked us if we were still having sex. When we responded in the affirmative, he told us he thought we would be just fine – but that he could offer us some visits with a counselor several hours away if we preferred. Luckily, we were not dealing with anything particularly serious. But I feel for the bishop that has to deal with this:
nibbler wrote:
When a marriage ends in divorce, or if a husband and wife separate, they shouldalwaysreceive counseling from Church leaders.
Underlining mine. What should that counseling look like I wonder?
Quote:At the risk of being cynical, I do you think the BP might have just been saying what he has to in order to keep a relationship with your husband?
I get your cynicism – but the answer is no. The more I learn about this Bishop that isn’t his style. He is a safe person for many people – of every different stripe.
My husband was relieved to share his pain with someone and have it go well. They talked about tons of other stuff. It wasn’t a church purposed meetings. Today the Bishop stopped and told me how much he loves my husband. My husband has been gone for 10 years. The Bishop gains nothing by keeping a relationship with him.
nibbler wrote:
When a marriage ends in divorce, or if a husband and wife separate, they shouldalwaysreceive counseling from Church leaders.
roy wrote:
Underlining mine. What should that counseling look like I wonder?
They aren’t counselors and they don’t have a clue. It’s all autobiographical based on their knowledge and life experience. If you are in marital crisis, you need a professional counselor, and half the time THEY aren’t very helpful easier. Believe, me, I know, I’ve attended marriage counselors before and most have been downright useless.
If you’re divorced or separated, they are useful for helping you understand the rules to stay off discipline, but the rest, it’s just some guy shooting from the hip.
The best counselor I ever had was the author of this book here, and I’ve never met him:
And his other book
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.