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Mfree6464: Visiting with LDS girlfriends, I believe your situation is more common that you would think — not the waiting 14 years to tell you — but a wife with more pre-marital experience than the husband. I also don’t think many people are going to publically announce that fact on a public forum — even an anonymous one. It would feel like they were throwing themselves or their spouses under a large and speeding bus. Don’t expect a huge choir of “Me Too” comments.
My girlfriends in that situation have stated that it was never an issue. Whether it was rape, incest, or promiscuity, their spouses loved them and wanted them emotionally and spiritually healthy. The actual experiences of what they had done — no one cared.
But …
You care very much. It doesn’t really matter what other people’s experiences and feelings are/were/will be. This is about you and your feelings. You are going to have to work through this. This doesn’t have to be part of your relationship for the eternities. You will have this until you decide to put this burden down and walk away from it. Only you can figure out how long you want to carry it on your life journey.
Most people have an arm full of burdens they carry through life. They are all heavy and painful. Some people drop burdens immediately and easily. Others are hoarders and carry everything they possibly can. You just have to decide what you are willing to carry.
I think I am being misunderstood – which is fine. I’ll try one more time to clarify and if that doesn’t help it really doesn’t matter. My main purpose was to hear from a few folks who have walked in my shoes and I have already achieved that objective and it has actually been more helpful than I anticipated. Here are a few recent quotes I would like to address:
“I think that comes from a place of being rejected for 30+ years and feeling more like I would answer, “Hell – if she would love ME NOW, I could care less who she did what before we were married.”I hope I have not said anything to make you believe I DON’T think or agree with this statement. As I have said many times, I would have married her regardless of what she told me when we were dating – sex or no sex. I loved her and would have loved her regardless of what she did before we were married. Please don’t misunderstand that. I still maintain that given the opportunity to go back and share only with a spouse that which was given to a teenage fling most would say yes and take that opportunity. My wife is one of them – she told me this voluntarily that she would love to take it back.
“Mfree, your wife seems like a wonderful woman. Make sure to tell her that……”I know this poster said he hadn’t read the entire thread so maybe he missed it, but I have tried to make it very clear that I hold nothing against my wife and that I love her more than anything and I tell her so daily. She also knows it through my actions. We have a great marriage – better than all of our friends I am certain.
“In my life, I have been hurt by people forcing me to share what I wanted to only share with Christ.”I never forced anyone to say anything and there is no reason to believe I did from any of my posts. This kind of felt like I was being lectured to here. Please read the thread if you are going to tell me what to do or not do. I made it clear that this information came out through an innocent conversation on how to raise our middle school daughter. I was not prying or forcing anyone to say anything or confess sins or however you are considering it to be.
“Visiting with LDS girlfriends, I believe your situation is more common that you would think”My wife is very social and is a stunningly attractive woman. She talks to her girlfriends about lots of things and when the girlfriends talk about who the husbands would pick in the ward, my wife’s name always comes up. She has told me that in those conversations with these women that many of them had more sexual experience than their husbands, so I am aware of that and agree with you I think.
“My girlfriends in that situation have stated that it was never an issue.”If my wife had answered me honestly way back when we were dating you would not be reading this post. I would have no issues or sorrow. None. We would be married and I would not be typing right now (and please remember that she had every right to not tell me and I’m not angry about her not telling me. At the same time I believe I had a right to ask that in a potential spouse. If that was something that was important for me to know then that is my prerogative.) The crux of the matter for me is that this has all been GREATLY amplified by the fact that I went so long thinking things were one way when they weren’t. Again, it shouldn’t matter but the fact is perspective matters to all of us a great deal. My perspective for 14 years was that I was her one and only in a certain way and then that changed in an instant. That isn’t easy. I would guess that more than half of the guys for whom their wife’s sexual experience was “never an issue” would probably have an issue if 15 years later down the road they were told it was actually a lot more involved than was originally let on. Should it matter? Probably not but I promise that it would for most of them and they would need time to process and recalibrate things. I have heard from several people (in this thread and through pms) who have walked in my shoes and NONE of them said anything like, “Dude, I’m not sure what your problem is. When I found out everything after years of marriage I had no problem because we were so happily married it didn’t matter to me.” Nobody has said that. They all have great sympathy and understanding and to one degree or another struggled as I am. Interestingly many of them had done similar or worse things than their spouse before marriage and it still brought them sorrow and heartache which I find very surprising.
One of the hallmarks of this site is that people are civil and try very hard to be supportive and understanding. But reading your posts especially the last one is like watching a train wreck about to happen. If you don’t get over this or at the very least stopping talking and obsessing about it, she’s going to divorce you. It happened to me and it will happen to you. Don’t think for a minute her love for you is infinite because if you keep this up she’s going to say that’s enough. Trust me. My last post had very little to do with my current feelings. I think I have done more healing in the last 3 days than I have the entire month previously and I credit much of that to the input and council I have received directly from this very message board. I was just having trouble understanding where some folks were coming from. It seemed like I was getting advice from people who weren’t reading things I was saying. I sincerely appreciate all the input and I apologize if my last post was curt. Mfree, I’m so glad that the past three days have been so good for you! I hope the healing continues and you and your wife continue to grow closer together. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
mfree6464 wrote:I think I am being misunderstood…
Here are a few recent quotes I would like to address:
“I think that comes from a place of being rejected for 30+ years and feeling more like I would answer, “Hell – if she would love ME NOW, I could care less who she did what before we were married.”I was just trying to answer the question you posed of:
mfree6464 wrote:Who would really say that given the opportunity to choose, they would choose to marry someone who had already shared those first experiences with someone else?
My answer was a bit indirect trying to say that I see many bigger issues than this. I would GLADLY trade spots with your situation (not swapping wives of course
So it can be argued I wasn’t directly answering your question. If it was guaranteed that both me and my wife would be in love and have lots of intimacy, I would lean towards us both being virgins and not even having much of any history. It just felt to me your question was a bit academic given the messiness of life.
I guess my point was, don’t beat yourself up that this is hurting – that is normal. At the same time, don’t ruin what you have in what sounds like a generally good marriage. I would hate to see this be the seed that eventually starts the downfall of your marriage. I think stuff like this is why we come to earth. To learn to work through hard things. Learning to love even when it is hard. Just think how some people have kept a marriage together after an affair. Don’t you think that is harder than knowing someone did something before marriage? Most people’s marriages don’t make it through an affair, but some do. Be that type of person that is going to make it work. I do see you reaching out here is a good sign that you are trying to find ways to do that.
And as far as the feedback you are getting, I did just think of something that some of my counselors have talked about called “differentiation”. You are getting feedback based on a few paragraphs. I suspect some is wrong, but there may be some key jewels. Our natural reaction is to push back when someone points out what they see as a flaw in us. The process of differentiation is to take each bit of feedback and contemplate it – deeply – and ask ourselves if there is any truth in it. Kind of like looking for the diamond in the rough (mass of dirt).
I wish you well in your efforts to be able to put this behind you. I tend to feel that you are going to make it and will look back on this as a time for growth and in the end strengthens your marriage.
I’m glad you are at a better place now than when you first found out about this. I still will stick with my first comment, but I will add one more thing:
I think you are trying to analyze intellectually a very emotional thing – which isn’t bad, but it should be recognized.
Whatever else you do, DON’T let your analyzing keep you from processing the emotional aspect of what happened – and absolutely don’t let it keep you from positive emotional interaction with your wife, including sexual interaction. Don’t withdraw from her in ANY way over this; rather, try to use it to bring you even closer in all ways.
Just to reiterate:
We are not professionals in this area.We share our own experiences and input, but we all speak from our own backgrounds and with our own personalities. If you need professional help at some point, please get it. You, she and your marriage are worth it. Hi – I hope you don’t mind if a borrow some key phrases from Looking Hards reply. He wrote-
Quote:I would GLADLY trade spots with your situation, where I felt loved in my marriage
On this board-chat group, we have many spouses who have a complete life hidden from their spouse. They carry agony everyday they can not share or can not share fully. This is not a sexual life, nor is it a deceit. The two people can’t share each others life experience. Day in and day out they try to reconcile and connect with the person they promised their lives to. It’s really painful and hard. No one is dismissing their pain. They get pain, hurt, sucker punched – they have area’s in their life they can’t talk about. Period.
He also wrote –
Quote:Just think how some people have kept a marriage together after an affair. Don’t you think that is harder than knowing someone did something before marriage? Most people’s marriages don’t make it through an affair, but some do.
I am walking with a friend who is going through this. Midway through her married life she learned he was not always with her. She discovered it, he didn’t come forward with it. This was after those vows, covenants, promises. The mending may take forever.
If just venting here has helped you, imagine what a therapist could do. There are great LDS ones who will do skype calls if you need. They are liberal, non-judging, and wisely informed. Even if it’s just for a few more vents – you owe it to both of you.
I’m glad we have been of help, even though there is some advice given here you may not agree with. That’s the way things work here, and why I appreciate the site so much – there is a huge variety of experience and great diversity of points of view. Our mission is to help those who struggle but wish to StayLDS to find ways to cope. How are we helping you do that?
I am so glad that you are feeling like you are in a better place on this. It really does get easier with time and support. This is definitely a place where an individual can get a range of responses. Some will resonate with your situation and others will not. That is ok. Just take what you need and don’t worry about the rest.
I think the discussion about possessiveness is interesting. President Hinckley said that “a wife should be a husband’s most precious possession.” As a missionary I had a female investigator take great offense to the word “possession.” I tried to explain that GBH was talking as a old grandfatherly figure and not as a stalking boyfriend type. So yes, we all bring our own baggage and assumptions to the word “possession/possessiveness.” Sometimes certain words become so loaded with baggage that they become less and less useful for individuals trying to understand one another. These difficulties of communication can get worse when we cannot see the non-verbal cues and are forced to rely only on the printed word.
I imagine that most reasonable people (myself included) exist on a scale of possessiveness towards their spouse and children. That is not necessarily a bad thing as long as it doesn’t get imbalanced and extreme.
Please, I do not want this to turn into a discussion on possessiveness. I only wanted to point out that different people can interpret the word very differently.
I’ve already replied twice, and maybe my responses haven’t been super supportive. I want OP to know that I really honestly do hope he finds peace. I want to respond to a question that was posed – this isn’t in a competitive way, it’s just interesting to see how people view things differently.
The question is (paraphrased): Is intimacy cheapened when we have to “share” it with people from our partner’s past? To me, the answer is a resounding
NO(bolded and capitalized). Here’s why: When I fell in love with my wife, that meant I fell in love with everything in her past; not because it was perfect, but simply because it was
her. If I were able to go into her past and erase mistakes she made (and do the same for me), she would cease to be my wife. Take this magic eraser to it’s ultimate end, where you erase every bad thing you and your spouse ever did – where you erased every intimate moment (physical or emotional) they ever had with someone else, and only kept the “desirable” part. You are left with a shell of a person… not even a real person. Because you also remove guilt, repentance, resolve, all things that eventually make a person “more” in my opinion. Past relationships give color and meaning to current ones. Our spouses and partners shared intimate moments with other people, but
then moved on, eventually to us. There’s way more power in that thought than there is in “My wife was the first date I went on”. I get that there are other people that would rather be their spouse’s first everything (date, kiss, light petting, whoot-whoot), but that’s just not me. My spouse introduced me to sushi; one of her past relationships was half-Japanese (which is where she was introduced to it). When we went the first time, she explained about how this person’s mom (Japanese) taught her certain aspects of Japanese cuisine and dining. Sushi is still a place we reach for if we want a romantic date night. I try to imagine erasing all of that and it seems extremely subtractive. My parting advice to OP would just be to love your wife. Think about what she’s feeling right now more than yourself, serve her and understand her, and I guarantee you’ll find yourself in calmer waters.
marty wrote:Our spouses and partners shared intimate moments with other people, but
then moved on, eventually to us.
I call this learning…. sometimes we have to learn, so we can be wise…====================================
I’m in a strange place. I’m divorced. I’ve had….drum roll…..SEX! I’m not a virgin! OH MY!…..
There is no way I’m gunna find a virgin at this stage in my life to get remarried to, unless I decide to find someone who I am old enough to be their father. How could I….I’m short, fat, bald, and no money. (well, not exactly,…but I FEEL LIKE IT SOMETIMES!!!!!!)
I don’t want in any way to canker or poison what has been said, but I speak for myself because I land so opposite in many ways on this thread to others. And, I’m OK with being in a different place.
I really hope I can find someone who is VERY experienced sexually–who knows what they want, likes what they want, and is willing to share and help me fulfill what they want. I’m not trying to be a pervert,…but I was hurt by the LDS culture in this area, always taught that sexuality and spirituality were in opposition to each other. I flat out 100% reject that now. What matters to me is NOT where my future partner has been, but where they are now, and if they will share all of what they have and are now with me.
I don’t think someone stops being a child of God, or precious, or redeemable, or becomes “used gum” because they had sex outside of marriage. And I do NOT accept that a couple messing around for 15 min when things go a little too far in the back seat of a car is a “sin next to murder”, more serious than someone emotionally abusing a child for years–for example. I unilaterally and completely reject that.
And I don’t personify “virtue” as some ethereal precious ruby that is beyond price, and once lost can ‘never be regained’ like SWK and others have hammered so strongly people commit suicide over “the loss!”
Aren’t people allowed to make mistakes in this world, so we can learn and …. drum roll….BIGGER DRUM ROLL………become wise?
Just sayin…..
PS…just had an after thought…the very theoretical position of the LDS faith about saving “oneself for their spouse” is sexist and discriminatory. The church for YEARS taught that polagamy was necessary for exaltation. And yet, men can hold women accountable for having that “special connection” ONLY with them, and yet the same man is sharing it with all of his other wives? Totally an inconsistent doctrine. Makes no sense whatsoever. I reject it flat out.
I agree, Marty. I understood from the first moment she told me that ultimately it changed nothing and did not matter. I knew it would not break up our marriage or anything to that extreme. And it won’t. I still don’t like the word “possessive” in this context but as Roy points out, that word means different things to different people and I think that is all there is to it. No point in belaboring that issue and it doesn’t offend me if people use the word differently than I would. I think at this point people are responding to each other on this thread as much as they are to me which is great. I just want to be clear that I don’t consider my wife “used gum” or anything near that. If my wife had told me that she had long sexual relationships with several people before we were married I would have married her still. 100%. I just wanted to know her level of sexual experience before we got married because mine was ZERO.
Rob4Hope, were my wife and I to get divorced (which is not happening!) I would not not even ask any of the people I would subsequently date about their sexual history once I was ready to move on and look for another spouse. Like you, I would assume (and hope) they were experienced. For me, it was just that as kids who were marrying for the first time, I wanted to know how experienced we were compared to each other and I feel I had a right to ask and know that information. But I feel that changes later in life.
I think that as I take in all the advice, suggestions and points people are making I am realizing that the main cause of my hurt and emotion was just having to adjust to the idea that I was not my wife’s first when I thought that I was. It is just taking me some time to get used to it. How long will that be? I don’t know but it is getting better by the day.
Those of you who were your spouse’s first probably cherish that fact (and if not then you should.) Not because it is necessary for a happy marriage but I would hope that it was something you valued and appreciated and considered special. Now after years of marriage if you found out that you were not the first you would have to change your mindset some. You would still love your spouse of course (I would hope!), but you could no longer cherish the fact that you were their first … because you found out you were not. It is a difficult transition. Very difficult. You think things are one way for 14 years then in 14 seconds it changes. Those were not things I wanted to let go. EVER. Now I am having to and it hurts. I’ll get used to it but the process of adapting is excruciating at times for me. But I will adapt because ultimately it is not worth carrying on in it and it doesn’t matter in the long run anyhow.
mfree6464 wrote:I just want to be clear that I don’t consider my wife “used gum” or anything near that. If my wife had told me that she had long sexual relationships with several people before we were married I would have married her still. 100%. I just wanted to know her level of sexual experience before we got married because mine was ZERO.
100% get what you are saying and 100% applaud this position. In fact, I see no reason people can’t share their sexual history with each other….I think it is healthy to have no skeletons. Some details I don’t want to know,…just because I don’t care. But, I would want to know the things that might bring up memories that are painful, for example, simply so I could WORK WITH my partner to heal and avoid those things. History has a single purpose….to learn. Thats my position anyway.
mfree6464 wrote:Rob4Hope, were my wife and I to get divorced (which is not happening!) I would not not even ask any of the people I would subsequently date about their sexual history once I was ready to move on and look for another spouse. Like you, I would assume (and hope) they were experienced.
I want to know enough about their sexual history so I can make a wise choice about compatibility…and I don’t think 2 people need to be sexual together to decide if they are compatible. Talk can go a long way, if there is experience, true honesty, and wisdom.
mfree6464 wrote:For me, it was just that as kids who were marrying for the first time, I wanted to know how experienced we were compared to each other and I feel I had a right to ask and know that information. But I feel that changes later in life.
Makes total sense.
mfree6464 wrote:
…I am realizing that the main cause of my hurt and emotion was just having to adjust to the idea that I was not my wife’s first when I thought that I was. It is just taking me some time to get used to it. How long will that be? I don’t know but it is getting better by the day.Understood, because its a paradigm shift. But,…she IS YOUR FINAL CHOICE. And that means a lot…a whole lot. Bask in that that reality….cuz it means a lot–out of her mistakes and choices, she has learned, and she got you…and is staying WITH YOU. Oh yeh…oh yeh…thats the good stuff. Don’t overlook that….and remember, there are guys like me on this thread who would give ANYTHING to have a wife who wanted to be with us intimately.
mfree6464 wrote:
Now after years of marriage if you found out that you were not the first you would have to change your mindset some. You would still love your spouse of course (I would hope!), but you could no longer cherish the fact that you were their first … because you found out you were not.
Having a paradigm shift makes sense. But I have a question: can you put a finger on what is in your past or perhaps teachings that make you value being “the first” so much, even after years of marriage? This is not a criticism, but an honest curiosity question. I ask because you get outside of religious and especially strong patriarchial religions like the LDS faith, and the idea of being the first “in marriage” looses a lot of steam…because it is rare. Also, I speculate because I’ve talked to a lot of friends, that being the “first” is not valued as much.
Is there a religious root in this feeling you have?
mfree6464 wrote:
It is a difficult transition. Very difficult. You think things are one way for 14 years then in 14 seconds it changes. Those were not things I wanted to let go. EVER. Now I am having to and it hurts. I’ll get used to it but the process of adapting is excruciating at times for me. But I will adapt because ultimately it is not worth carrying on in it and it doesn’t matter in the long run anyhow.In my case, the idea of divorce was something that horrified me. It wasn’t until I finally had no other choice, that I accepted it. Now I realize that holding onto that belief that divorce was worse than anything else, including what got me excommunicated, do I realize that it was a false belief…a tradition that ultimately hurt me MORE than other things.
Rob4Hope, I just want to answer this question you posed me:
can you put a finger on what is in your past or perhaps teachings that make you value being “the first” so much, even after years of marriage?I really don’t think there is anything in my past that makes me value it “so much.” Like I said, and I genuinely believe this, I would have married her even if she had several extended sexual relationships before me (meaning even if I would not have been her first in ANY way.) I would have married her and probably not ever shed a single tear over the matter if she would have been forthcoming.
I think what happened with me was after the fact. She told me during our very first “sex history talk” that she had never had sex, that she was a virgin but that she had done “some things” with boys she should not have. After several of these talks I finally got tired of speaking in generalities and I asked her straight up how far things went. “Kissing and touching” were the exact words. I wanted further clarification and asked about kissing below the belt. She responded with a very clear, “No.”
At that point I felt like I knew her experience level and something inside me (subconsciously to a large degree) allowed myself to really grab on and be excited that I would be her first experience with regular and oral sex. Through the ensuing 14 years that was my mindset. She had been touched and kissed in some places but oral sex and regular sex was something only she and I shared.
Now mind you, these are things I thought and took comfort from years ago. Don’t misunderstand and think that every time we were intimate I was saying to myself, “Boy, I sure am glad I’m her first because if not this would be miserable.” I honestly had not thought about any of these things for many years. But it was something that I appreciated and held dear. I was glad that she saved those things for me. Not that people who don’t are anything less, but I appreciated it and valued it greatly. It was why I saved them for her. So when I had to shift my thinking it was painful, that’s all.
I don’t think it was some deep expectation or religious brainwashing that gave me an unreal expectation. I dated a girl in high school for a short time and she was not a member and had done all things sexual with many partners. I was 16 and it was at that point that I decided (and I remember this vividly) that if the one I fell in love with were not a virgin that would not be a deal breaker for me. I had already decided that long before I met my wife. I think that my pain and hurt was all retroactive because I allowed myself to believe and take comfort in being her first after she told me I would be.
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