- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Quote:
By the way, I used whisky the other day to try and calm down a toothache. It was a rotten brand, and the pills I’d taken didn’t seem to work. I definitely didn’t drink it for pleasure, and I had about a thimbloe full each time to deal with the pain. Was this right or wrong?
I think that’s subject to personal interpretation. Ray’s right – I would generally not look for self-justification. And I do know that members in good standing in Europe (friends of mine) take a little wine (a
trocito) to take the chill off in winter. I am not making this up. Will more European converts lead to a wider spread relaxation of the WoW interpretation? Maybe! I got into some WoW related trouble as a rebellious teen, and my parents (who are converts) had me read D&C 89 with them. When we got to the end, they looked confused and said, “That didn’t say what we thought it was going to say.”
hawkgrrrl wrote:When we got to the end, they looked confused and said, “That didn’t say what we thought it was going to say.”
Well exactly, all that stuff about
hotdrinks (whatever they are) and tobacco being for sick cattle (apparently it works as well), but no specific mention of tea, coffee, caffeine (if they knew what that was at the time) or even various drugs which are far worse for you. The interpretation of the phrase “hot drinks” as tea and coffee begs all kinds of questions about other hot drinks including soup, or if ice tea is actually alright etc.
Instead of standing alone like this, it would be nice if the later prophets had added their own section to D&C explaining some of this stuff in more detail. Is chocolate to be eaten “sparingly” too for example? There’s probably a good argument that way too.
It turns out from historical records that early LDS didn’t stick to it very much at all and I’ve even heard of people claiming it’s a recommendation, not a commandment. I certainly think
overindulgence in all of the substances mentioned will harm people – that’s not in question. I personally don’t dwell on the status change. It was a suggestion; now it’s a temple requirement. OK. Got it. 😈 I think it’s fascinating how culture plays a role in how it is interpreted – and I really like the fact that the central church doesn’t crack down on the local cultures and dictate one universal standard. I also like the fact that the temple recommend question doesn’t do that either – that it simply asks if the person obeys the Word of Wisdom. There isn’t supposed to be any further clarification with the question – so, in this case, local interpretations can be “right”.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:
I’m not so sure the WoW is really all that clear about alcohol as far as trying to claim that any moderate amount of alcohol is automatically bad. Sure it specifically mentions wine and strong drink but I doubt that very many non-Mormons would interpret beer to be a “strong drink” regardless of whether it contains 3.2-8% alcohol. People think this is what the Word of Wisdom means simply because that’s what they have been told, not because that’s what it actually says. In fact the WoW specifically says “All grain is good … barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks.” If beer is not, in fact, the most common and popular “mild drink” made from barley then I don’t know what is.Yep. That is what keeps me shaking my head every time we cover this topic in SS. PERSONAL INTERPRETATION!
Old-Timer wrote:I personally don’t dwell on the status change. It was a suggestion; now it’s a temple requirement. OK. Got it.
😈 I’m glad there are those who can just say that. It’s just doesn’t work for me. Actually, it chaps my hide. This “status change” which came during prohibition has evolved in “gospel doctrine” over the last 90 years and I believe it has become one of the single biggest stumbling blocks to the church. it certainly is one of mine. I wish President Grant and the current members now would have just listened and followed the suggested wisdom in the WofW, rather than basing an entire religion around it. I have no problem with those who choose to interpret it and add dos and don’t that just aren’t there for their personal worship – but why “force” everyone else to do the same. The rules we are taught about the WofW from the podium ARE NOT in the revelation – and by making it a TR question – it has become “doctrine”, and it does “force” us to follow these rules that are not in there if we want to be fully active members in the church. Perhaps this is not official doctrine coming from SLC — but it certainly from my experience it seems like I belong to The Church of Word of Wisdom rather than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
cwald, I’m going to be very direct in this comment, but please realize it is coming from a place of peace and calm in relation to this issue. I have decades of working with people who say similar things to what I am quoting below, and those who are able to move through it all had to internalize what I’m about to say: Quote:rather than basing an entire religion around it
That hasn’t been done – and you never will find true peace until you realize, acknowlege and embrace the fact that it hasn’t been done.
Quote:from my experience it seems like I belong to The Church of Word of Wisdom rather than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
Then you have to learn to adjust your perspective, if you want to find peace and joy in the LDS Church. I think it is safe to say that you don’t really believe that, at least not deep down – unless you are, in this particular area, one of the weakest of the weak. I don’t mean that as an insult. Every one of us is one of the weakest of the weak in some area, whether we recognize it or not. It simply is human tendency to exaggerate something with which we struggle to the point where it dominates our thinking and vision – and that struggle can be physical, intellectual, emotional or spiritual.
If something dominates your mind so much that you honestly can say what I’ve quoted above, then you need to do whatever it takes to weaken it within your own mind – and not blame anyone else for it being that size in your mind. Sure, a parent or leader or friend can contribute to planting the seed that grew into your own mental forest, but you are the one who has to clear the ground – and stop fertilizing the seed that was planted and the other plants that sprang from the original plant.
Ray, are you kidding me? Perhaps I’m in the wrong forum? Perhaps I’m on the wrong website? In your attempt to lecture me, you completely missed my point. Here is my point…
“The rules we are taught about the WofW from the podium ARE NOT in the revelation – and by making it a TR question – it has become “doctrine”, and we are ‘forced’ to obey it to be fully active mormons”.That was my point! Okay, now, pertaining to the rest of the response. I said , “but it certainly from MY EXPERIENCE it seems like I belong to The Church of Word of Wisdom rather than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.”
Perhaps I am on the wrong website for stating what my experience is – but don’t tell me I’m wrong and don’t know what MY EXPERIENCE is.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:rather than basing an entire religion around it
That hasn’t been done – and you never will find true peace until you realize, acknowlege and embrace the fact that it hasn’t been done.
Quote:from my experience it seems like I belong to The Church of Word of Wisdom rather than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
Really? You think you know my experience? Here is my experience…
My nonmember friends KNOW that mormons don’t drink coffee or alcohol, but they had no idea that I’m a christian until I told them. They didn’t even know I believed in Jesus! yet they know I don’t drink coffee? You want to argue about a culture that has built itself around the WofW. DON’T TELL ME WHAT MY EXPERIENCE IS.
My MORMON friends in HS would not go out and drink as teenagers, and would instead go and watch R-rated movies and “make-out” on the couch – that way they could graduate from seminary. DON’T TELL ME WHAT MY EXPERIENCE IS.
Growing up in the 80’s during the BRM years, and still some today, the WofW is mentioned in the same sentence as chastity. Chasity and WofW were the TWO sins that would “send you to hell.” I heard it EVERT sunday growing up. DON’T TELL ME WHAT MY EXPERIENCE IS.
In my Branch, I hear more about the WofW EVERY Sunday than I hear about Jesus Christ. DON’T TELL ME WHAT MY EXPERIENCE IS.
When I went to the temple-the pinnacle of Mormon worship-one of the three covenants I made, along with tithing and chastity, was keeping the WofW. DON’T TELL ME WHAT MY EXPERIENCE IS. (my wife is reading over my shoulder and said something about the law of consecration…I don’t know, haven’t been for a while, but you get the idea. 30% of the temple covenant is based on the WofW.) DON’T TELL ME WHAT MY EXPERIENCE IS.
Look, I know that the WofW is not the gospel. I said so, “that SLC doesn’t preach this.” This is a cultural issue. This is what is coming from the culture that we MORMONS have created. I envy you who participate in a ward where this is NOT the focus of worship. BUT FROM MY EXPERIENCE IN THE CHURCH, THE WORD OF WISDOM IS ON PAR WITH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST AND LIVING THE LAW OF CHASITY. Please! I’m pretty sure that Im not alone when I say that, yes, our CULTURE has built a religion that SEEMS to be based on the WofW. You ask ANYONE who is NOT LDS and they will tell you so.
If you don’t agree or don’t care for my opinion, fine, I will gracefully bow out and look elsewhere to discuss these issues. BUT DON’T TELL ME WHAT MY EXPERIENCE IS. If I wanted you to do that, I have plenty of church leader and family members who are more than happy to fill that role.
cwald, I never said your experiences are invalid, and I never said much of what you said in your response. Please re-read my response. At heart, I said that if you feel that the LDS Church can be described as the Church of the Word of Wisdom, and especially if you feel that the WofW is on par with faith in Jesus Christ, you are going to have to alter your perspective in order to find peace and happiness with regard to the WofW. I believe that is true.
If you disagree with that, I understand. It was offered as personal advice, and I’m nowhere near infallible. It’s just consistent with my decades of working with people who are struggling. (Also, remember, I’m not a WofW Nazi. My comment was not written from that view. That should be clear from my comments here.)
Beer story is secondary; the real story is the naked ward sauna party!! 
This is very interesting. I wonder why this is any different than active members drinking Mountain Dew…I truly believe each individual should pray about the Word of Wisdom and follow what the Spirit reveals within what we are given. As polygamy came and then went, perhaps this will as well. I wonder what others think. I do feel moderation is very important. cwald wrote:Old-Timer wrote:I personally don’t dwell on the status change. It was a suggestion; now it’s a temple requirement. OK. Got it.
😈 I’m glad there are those who can just say that. It’s just doesn’t work for me. Actually, it chaps my hide. This “status change” which came during prohibition has evolved in “gospel doctrine” over the last 90 years and I believe it has become one of the single biggest stumbling blocks to the church. it certainly is one of mine. I wish President Grant and the current members now would have just listened and followed the suggested wisdom in the WofW, rather than basing an entire religion around it. I have no problem with those who choose to interpret it and add dos and don’t that just aren’t there for their personal worship – but why “force” everyone else to do the same. The rules we are taught about the WofW from the podium ARE NOT in the revelation – and by making it a TR question – it has become “doctrine”, and it does “force” us to follow these rules that are not in there if we want to be fully active members in the church. Perhaps this is not official doctrine coming from SLC — but it certainly from my experience it seems like I belong to The Church of Word of Wisdom rather than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
I agree with cwald, sometimes it does seem more like “The Church of the Word of Wisdom” rather than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints because this really is one of the most visible and questionable aspects of being a practicing Mormon nowadays. In all honesty, I’m not complaining about this because it’s really that much of a problem for me personally. My biggest stumbling blocks regarding the Church are easily tithing and serious doubts about Joseph Smith and other LDS prophets. Thanks to energy drinks, Mountain Dew, and Vivarin I would have no serious difficulties living the WoW for the rest of my life but I wouldn’t want to be caught dead drinking coffee at work simply because a few TBM co-workers that know I’m a RM might start to think I’m a son of perdition in that case.
I disagree with the current WoW policies mostly out of principle. It bothers me that Church leaders can just change these things on a whim to match their own opinions and then we are basically stuck with all these dogmatic rules until further notice. This kind of unquestioning obedience and authoritarianism is one reason the Church was able to pass off racial discrimination as an essential doctrine until 1978. In my opinion, the WoW is one of the single most cult-like and unchristian features of the current Church culture. Some of the self-righteous attitudes directly related to externally visible conformance to petty rules like this reminds me way too much of the Pharisees (Mark 2:16-17).
Quote:Some of the self-righteous attitudes directly related to externally visible conformance to petty rules like this reminds me way too much of the Pharisees (Mark 2:16-17).
Yep; I agree with that. Seriously, I have no disagreement with that sentence – none at all.
We will always be, more or less, at the mercy of individuals in wards or branches that will have agendas and the WoW will be right there in the top 10. It’s always easier to focus on the little things than the “weightier matters” but when you look at the church with a capital C the brethren in their preaching and teaching seem to keep things in balance. Part of getting along is knowing who and what to ignore. Growing up in the 70’s and 80’s, WofW was certainly perceived by myself and peers to be on par with the law of chastity, if not more important than everything about the law of chastity other than “going all the way”. This is why the following joke is funny:
You know how you can tell if the girl you’re with is Mormon? When you open a beer, she’ll put her shirt back on.
Another similar joke:
Always bring two Mormons with you on a fishing trip so they won’t drink your beer.
Can I just chip in here? The WoW hasn’t been mentioned much in the church meetings I’ve been to. It got brought up in my interview with the bishop yesterday, but that was all strictly private.
On the other hand, Jesus Christ has also been mentioned numerous times as well, which is in distinction to some of the reports I’ve heard about other wards elsewhere.
I agree with the comments that such behavior can seem Pharasaical
Matthew 15
Quote:16And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man
(NIV version)
Quote:16″Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17″Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’ 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.’ “
It does seem strange that we’re supposed to have abolished kosher, but have instituted this.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.