Could this WofW story be for real?

[Anonymous]

From my experience, it is definitely a part of our culture (sometimes a very annoying part for me), and it is also part of our commandments and church. But all commandments and teachings in the church have a priority level, or to say it differently, are built on other commandments or teachings, and the foundational ones are the most critical to understand and live.

Word of Wisdom as I have studied it has changed so much over the years, in how it is taught to how people require living it in the church. Seems to have been taught in the D&C as a word of wisdom, not by way of commandment. But certainly not too far afterwards, people in early church history were having this stated among reasons why a person was apostate and should be excommunicated.

Since then, it has become formalized into the big 4 No-nos as a standard for temple worthiness (which I disagree with), but you don’t see people being excommunicated over it anymore, so that is good.

I think we’d be naive to think it is not a major part of our religion, because of worthiness standard questions, and as CWALD stated, it is what non-members know of us. I get that at work all the time, and have to correct their misunderstanding that it isn’t what defines our church…just a part of the experience.

But on the level of purpose and understanding behind it, I can accept there are good things about it and reasons I can commit to the required standard as taught by the current prophets, seers, and revelators…but I don’t have to take it literally that my disagreeing with it proves all the other teachings in the church meaningless or false and is the rock of our foundation.

The Rock is Christ. The commandments to Love God and our neighbor are the two that all others hang on…and from there principles and teachings get piled up in efforts to help us. Somewhere down the line, proving my God and myself I can live without specific 4 substances in my body is a good test of self-control…so I can live it. On the other hand, President Uchtdorf’s words to me are beatiful:

Quote:

there are so many “shoulds” and “should nots” that merely keeping track of them can be a challenge. Sometimes, well-meaning amplifications of divine principles—many coming from uninspired sources—complicate matters further, diluting the purity of divine truth with man-made addenda. One person’s good idea—something that may work for him or her—takes root and becomes an expectation. And gradually, eternal principles can get lost within the labyrinth of “good ideas.”-Pres Uchtdorf

I can’t accept the WoW is literally true that taking these 4 substances makes a person unworthy before God, and perhaps being able to accept that will help me to be loving and accepting of any of my brothers and sisters who do use these substances, because I know there is more to the church than just this law.

I guess I benefit more from leaders like Pres McKay or my grandfather who was a Stake President, and other leaders like these two who also dealt with over-zealous “Word of Wisdom Nazis” in the church, and had a Christ-like response on drinking coke and eating rum cake. I try to emulate that approach. I make it a personal choice to accept this law and live or not…but I certainly don’t let it define my entire experience in church. If others do…that’s their problem (that’s a shot at my ward members, not anyone here on this board).

[Anonymous]

SamBee wrote:

I agree with the comments that such behavior can seem Pharasaical

(NIV version)

Quote:

16″Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17″Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’ 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.’ “

It does seem strange that we’re supposed to have abolished kosher, but have instituted this.

Exactly, another good scripture along these lines is Matthew 15:11:

Quote:

“Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.”

I can’t count the number of times I have heard TBMs make judgmental comments about how people who drink or smoke smell bad or are worthless idiots in general because of these habits. Whatever happened to loving your neighbor? More like love your neighbors as long as they think and act almost exactly like you do. To me, this is what the current WoW policies are really all about more than anything else, basically promoting some level of cult-like separation between those on the inside from outsiders. As far as I’m concerned this is the attitude that really needs to go away but it’s hard to convince some active members of this as long as it’s a temple requirement and is still emphasized so much in the culture of the Church.

[Anonymous]

DA: I love that Matt scripture you quoted…perfect!!

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

To me, this is what the current WoW policies are really all about more than anything else, basically promoting some level of cult-like separation between those on the inside from outsiders. As far as I’m concerned this is the attitude that really needs to go away but it’s hard to convince some active members of this as long as it’s a temple requirement and is still emphasized so much in the culture of the Church.

I agree that this is the part that frustrates me. But honestly, when I look at this behavior…I see it in the behavior of the members and I see most of the leadership trying to coach them to remember to deal with this in love. (I’ll just add…from my limited experience…I see less of this as a problem the further from Utah I get. In NJ [“the mission field”], I didn’t see this so much).

I don’t know, maybe the problem is not in the church’s teaching of the principle…but in the coaching going on.

No where have I seen where the church teaching it is a temple required standard and it also adds, “and shun those who don’t live it.” That last part is not taught but seems to be added by those who are putting a strict level on their own behavior..and then impose that outwardly to others, which is not what Christ taught, IMO.

Is the problem the way the church teaches it or the imperfect people living it? Or is it the coaches?

[Anonymous]

Okay, I’m back. I had to spend a couple of days drinking heavily so I could calm down. (that is a joke) I do appreciate that there are some on this site that understand what I’m trying to say about this issue. I thought perhaps I had crossed a stayLDS line and wasn’t allowed to speak about it. It is very very frustrating to me, because I think I understand the gospel pretty well, and I just have never been able to figure out how the WofW that I was taught fits into it. In fact, it doesn’t. In my opinion, it is absolutely BS – at least the way that I was taught the WofW growing up. I apologize for my rant, Ray, I really don’t understand you very well, but I know that you’re doing and saying what you feel is right, and I do appreciate the time you put in to keeping this website up and running. Actually Ray, you sound just like my older “Bishop” brother which is maybe why you annoyed me so much earlier. 😡 I’ll get over that

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

I can’t count the number of times I have heard TBMs make judgmental comments about how people who drink or smoke smell bad or are worthless idiots in general because of these habits. Whatever happened to loving your neighbor? More like love your neighbors as long as they think and act almost exactly like you do. To me, this is what the current WoW policies are really all about more than anything else, basically promoting some level of cult-like separation between those on the inside from outsiders. As far as I’m concerned this is the attitude that really needs to go away but it’s hard to convince some active members of this as long as it’s a temple requirement and is still emphasized so much in the culture of the Church.

This is what I’m talking about! YESTERDAY in church, we have 6 non-members/very inactive members who, from what I have deduced, is because of their WofW problems, they just don’t feel comfortable at church. Great! The chapel smells like cigarettes and coffee – as it should, because the people who perhaps need to be there for spiritual guidance, are actually there. Right? “Church is for the sinners”??? The high councilman gets up and gives his spill, and I kid you not, in his talk he uses the words “smoking” and “evil” in the SAME sentence at least three times. He didn’t come right out say that “smoking was evil”, but it was pretty obvious (to me and my wife at least) what his message was. Oh all the good and decent messages one could preach from a mormon podium, he had to go and say THAT? What’s the chance of getting these guys back in church anytime soon? It was unbelievable! Made me sick to my stomach. I made sure I talked to every one of those guys after sacrament meeting. Even spent an extra ten minutes with one guy and let him tell me about all the spiritual meaning of all his tattoos. (That”s another topic for another day. ) Out.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

Actually Ray, you sound just like my older “Bishop” brother which is maybe why you annoyed me so much earlier. 😡 I’ll get over that

Actually Ray, you’ll get a kick out this. My friend who was disfellowshiped that you commented about, who only wanted the bishopric to stop by and…. Well his bishop IS my old brother.

[Anonymous]

Thank you everyone for keeping the community feel in the thread, and getting back to a supportive and charitable/understanding tone. It is VERY easy to read the wrong things from typed words, not having the body language, vocal tone and all the other context from a verbal conversation.

[Anonymous]

If a guy comes into sacrament meeting stinking of drink (and that has happened once or twice when I’ve been there), maybe that’s where he needs to be. I suppose his problems might be more obvious, but there will be other people doing far more, and far worse, but sitting there as if nothing has happened.

I did bring this up the other day. Jesus met with people who were outcasts – lepers, and tax collectors (Matthew), the likes of Mary Magdalene, and people with “unclean spirits” (which I believe covers everything from demon possession to epilepsy and schizophrenia)… he went to the Pharisees (the holy rollers and theologians), but they didn’t get along, because Jesus was interested in the spirit of the Law (Torah) and they were interested in the letter of the law.

And believe me, no one here would really want to hear about most of what I discussed in my interview on Sunday either. 😳 (Just to clarify, the local bishop seems a decent enough person, but I had to tell him about certain aspects of my lifestyle over the past few years. I’m hoping that he will help me through some of the issues.)

Quote:

This is what I’m talking about! YESTERDAY in church, we have 6 non-members/very inactive members who, from what I have deduced, is because of their WofW problems, they just don’t feel comfortable at church. Great! The chapel smells like cigarettes and coffee – as it should, because the people who perhaps need to be there for spiritual guidance, are actually there. Right? “Church is for the sinners”??? The high councilman gets up and gives his spill, and I kid you not, in his talk he uses the words “smoking” and “evil” in the SAME sentence at least three times. He didn’t come right out say that “smoking was evil”, but it was pretty obvious (to me and my wife at least) what his message was. Oh all the good and decent messages one could preach from a mormon podium, he had to go and say THAT? What’s the chance of getting these guys back in church anytime soon? It was unbelievable! Made me sick to my stomach. I made sure I talked to every one of those guys after sacrament meeting. Even spent an extra ten minutes with one guy and let him tell me about all the spiritual meaning of all his tattoos. (That”s another topic for another day. ) Out.

(I too have a friend with what you could call spiritual tattoos – lots of pagan stuff, but yep, that’s for another day.)

I realize that smoking is a highly destructive habit (worse than drinking alcohol and caffeine for the health), but I also realize that it is incredibly hard to quit.

I’m eternally grateful I was never hooked on cigarettes, but some school friends of mine were not so lucky. They started behind huts in the school yard at twelve or so, and are still doing it decades later. A smoker friend of mine used to remind me that nicotine is more addictive than heroin. This is true, although the addiction of nicotine is psychological, and that of heroin physical. Incredibly hard to quit. I have heard of people who quit forty years in the past and STILL get the odd craving for them. So while I can’t empathize since it never happened to me, I’ve heard so many testimonies to this effect that it must be the case.

I don’t consider smoking evil myself, I consider it unhealthy. It affects your personality as in it makes you moody if you don’t have a cigarette for a few hours, but otherwise I think it tends to go for the heart and lungs rather than changing the person’s moral behavior, like drink. That’s how I see it – smoking will rot your lungs, but it won’t make you steal, be violent, or commit sexual acts IMHO.

[Anonymous]

cwald, it is helps in any way, please read the following posts from my personal blog (or any others from the categories at the bottom of the blog). Maybe it will help you understand me a little better with regard to the Word of Wisdom and those who leave the Church:

“My Dream: A Collective Mighty Change of Heart” (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/12/my-dream-collective-mighty-change-of.html)

“Fellowship vs. Membership” (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/10/fellowship-vs-membership.html)

“Truly Loving Those Who Leave” (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2010/03/truly-loving-those-who-leave.html)

Seriously, I’m very hard to categorize and label, because I’m not much of an extremist on anything. I tackle every single issue as a separate issue, and I’ve thought deeply about almost every issue we discuss here for a LONG, LONG time. I have been accused by various people of being too liberal, too conservative, too moderate and just about every other “too ________” imaginable. I’m not shy or timid, but I almost always use disclaimers to avoid extremes. (See, even in that sentence, I used a disclaimer.) To say I’m “complicated” would be an understatement – and I don’t mean that as a boast.

I know I’m hard to understand – but I also know I am very happy and at peace in the LDS Church despite knowing and having studied just as much as anyone you ever will meet about the issues we discuss here (except at the level of a Richard Bushman) – and despite having LOTS of existing concerns. When I tell someone, essentially, “If you want happiness and peace, that’s up to you – not how others act,” I know how hard that is to understand and accept – but I have come to believe it’s true. However, having said that, I also am just as quick to say to those whose attitudes offend and drive people away, “Knock it off. Repent. That’s not the Gospel or pure Mormonism.”

[Anonymous]

We love you Ray, even if you are weird

[Anonymous]

I can’t remember who I heard this from, but it was profound:

When Jesus comes back, he probably isn’t go to appear first in the temples or the churches. He will probably start with the bars and the “street corners.”

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

cwald, if it helps in any way, please read the following posts from my personal blog… Maybe it will help you understand me a little better with regard to the Word of Wisdom and those who leave the Church:”

Quote:

My Dream: A Collective Mighty Change of Heart

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I would feel like I had died and gone to heaven if every member in my ward and stake openly and sincerely invited everyone they knew to sit with us as we worship in Sacrament Meeting simply because they love them and want to share our worship with them – no other strings attached.

I would love to see our chapels packed to overflowing during Sacrament Meeting, even if many of the attendees left the building and didn’t stay for the other two hours – because they weren’t interested in the instruction that occurs in those meetings.

I would love to sit with a gay friend and his partner and their daughter, to smell cigarette smoke residue in the pew behind me, to wave to the girl in the tank top in the back, to see what tattoo or earring the man in front of me had added the previous week, to be surrounded by every shade of skin imaginable, etc – even if I had to wish them a blessed week after Sacrament Meeting ended, and even if I had no realistic hope in them ever being baptized and joining the Church…

Fellowship vs. Membership —How willing are we to accept a habitual drunk as our pew mate? How willing are we to embrace a homosexual couple in our meetings – understanding that they will hear the Law of Chastity preached in our meetings and might never be baptized and join our membership ranks? How willing are we to tolerate the smell of tobacco from the pew in front of us? How willing are we to have a Baptist or a Methodist or a Catholic or a Jew or a Muslim worship at our side if they are open about their unwillingness to be baptized?

Yeah, this is certainly something we can build common ground on. This IS my hope for the church. Well said.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

…It is very very frustrating to me, because I think I understand the gospel pretty well, and I just have never been able to figure out how the WofW that I was taught fits into it. In fact, it doesn’t. In my opinion, it is absolutely BS – at least the way that I was taught the WofW growing up

Old-Timer wrote:

“Knock it off. Repent. That’s not the Gospel or pure Mormonism.”

Heber13 wrote:

No where have I seen where the church teaching it is a temple required standard and it also adds, “and shun those who don’t live it.” That last part is not taught but seems to be added by those who are putting a strict level on their own behavior..and then impose that outwardly to others, which is not what Christ taught, IMO.

Is the problem the way the church teaches it or the imperfect people living it? Or is it the coaches?

I don’t really believe that most Church leaders actually condone or openly encourage any of the self-righteous and intolerant attitudes that some members have about the WoW. This is probably just an unintended side-effect that has developed independently to some extent in the culture of the Church. However, even if we try to be as nice as possible about the WoW, I still think it’s a fundamentally flawed doctrine that looks more like an opinion gone wrong.

The problem is that making the WoW an essential requirement for baptism and the temple is basically the same as claiming that you absolutely need to avoid all of these things or else you will be condemned and oh by the way beer is now included in the list even though the original revelation specifically said that “mild drinks” made from barley were acceptable. This is a very bold statement to make especially when your 2 most revered hero figures Jesus and Joseph Smith both reportedly drank wine. If these rules are really all that important then it seems like they should have known better and should have set the proper example.

In the very least, it seems like Heber J. Grant should have delivered a new revelation at the end of D&C explaining why exactly all this is necessary. Maybe he didn’t feel like he needed to do this because this was a fairly popular opinion at the time to the point that even non-Mormon lawmakers were pushing the idea of nation-wide alcohol prohibition but to me that just makes it even more suspect to assume that this should still be applicable today.

Some apologists might claim that as long this prevents more people from smoking or becoming alcoholics then that is a good thing overall and there’s not that much of a downside. Maybe so, but personally I think it’s dishonest and manipulative and continuing to insist that we absolutely need to do all this just because the prophets said so or just because that’s what we have always done (in recent memory) is only going to undermine the Church’s credibility over the long run. As a suggestion it sort of made sense but as a set-in-stone commandment it is much harder to defend at this point. What most people would consider to be “sins” will typically have negative consequences or do real harm but this is not necessarily the case at all if you drink a cup of coffee or a few beers.

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

However, even if we try to be as nice as possible about the WoW, I still think it’s a fundamentally flawed doctrine that looks more like an opinion gone wrong.

…

In the very least, it seems like Heber J. Grant should have delivered a new revelation at the end of D&C explaining why exactly all this is necessary. Maybe he didn’t feel like he needed to do this because this was a fairly popular opinion at the time to the point that even non-Mormon lawmakers were pushing the idea of nation-wide alcohol prohibition but to me that just makes it even more suspect to assume that this should still be applicable today.

I am right with ya, DA. I totally get the idea that there are many societal vices that lead to bad things…and those that have a problem need to address that in their lives.

But how it got from a Word of Wisdom (like good advice) to a sin, is bogus in my mind. But now that it is there…I can’t see them really backing off of it and changing it (of course, that’s the other thread on “will it ever change”).

I just have to not let it ruin my experience…I just figure…whatever, I’ve never drank and I guess I never will, even if I think it is goofy. When I travel for business and I’m all alone and no one would know if I went to the hotel bar for happy hour by myself…I just am glad I’m not tempted and it isn’t something I crave to do. I guess it is just one of the prices we pay for membership. That’s how I have come to view it. And because I don’t put any other mystical meaning to it…I don’t judge anyone else who smells like smoke or drinks. It just doesn’t bother me one way or another.

[Anonymous]

As a non-American, I’ve always considered prohibition to be on the of the more stupid phases in American history. Why? Well, it may have been done with good intent, but the law helped make the Mafia rich, seemed to have been flouted regularly, and more importantly, alcohol is incredibly easy to make. How can you police something like that?

[Anonymous]

It’s interesting to me to compare the WoW with the Seventh Day Adventist’ health code. They believe in avoiding caffeine, meat and I think alcohol but I’m not sure. It’s a tenet of their religion but not a requirement. The origin is at about the same time as the WoW and as I understand health practices were a common interest of the time. Adventists world wide and have over 20 million members, emphasize health and health care in their culture and have a impressive growth rate without proselyting. I wonder what would have happened if the WoW would have stayed as it was. As it is the LDS Church is defined in the eyes of others as much by avoidance of coffee and tea and it’s good works and by the same measure it seems to define us in the same way.

[Author]

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