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doug wrote:
I am fascinated by the whole LDS/nudist concept. I’d love the chance to understand more of the issues involved. I’m betting there’s a website.Oh man, there is! I searched for something quite different at one point and came across this website:
I was SO shocked that I HAD to read some of the forum.
😯 WOWI am shock and amazed. Prior to cwald’s post of Jan 1, was a post from SamBee dated » 28 Apr 2010, 15:16, 7 months ago, holy cow man! I didn’t expect such a restoration of my faith, but this is definitely resurrection of the thread! lol :angel: Old-Timer wrote:doug, “bad butt nudity” would have made the pun more clear.
Now, I think your comment is quite funny.
🙂 Well, I’m no comedian, but I felt like taking too many liberties would spoil it. That’s just what I thought when I read the phrase originally. At least you knew what I was trying to say
🙂 .cwald wrote:F4H1
Here is a Word of Wisdom thread from a couple of months ago that got pretty heated. Perhaps you might be interested in browsing it and putting in your two-cents.
This is my take, FWIW. JS got caught up in the culture of his day, and wrote up a document that suggested the saints follow certain health patterns of the time, as well as discouraged the saints from their prior cultural customs (tea). Brigham Young made it a commandment some years later. Over the next 100 years the “Prophets” pretty well did a lot of gutting of the document and used their own interpretation and personal opinions to decide what was okay and what wasn’t. In the 1920s. Pres Grnt, who abhorred alcohol, disregarded that beer was actually okay in the original document that Smith wrote AND that it was a health code, and made prohibition of the “forbidden four” a requirement to to enter the temple – which is the equivalent in mormondom of making it a requirement to go to heaven, be with your family forever in the CK etc. Over the next 90 some years, the WoW has become the one of the most defining/important “CULTURAL” commandment that the most LDS membership focuses on as an outward sign of righteousness.
That is just my opinion. Let the discussion begin.
Oh yeah, let me also state again for the record — the WoW as the membership practices it, IMO, has NOTHING to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ, NOTHING, and is the biggest deal breaker in the LDS church.
This is how I’m starting to view it, especially after I start to hear about Graham (creator of the graham cracker) and Kellogg (creator of corn flakes). They both created diets that all but banned any stimulating foods (alcohol, tobacco, meat, etc). These diets were also created in the mid 19th century, just like the WoW. The interesting thing is that their diets seemed to be designed to curb passion (especially sexual passion). I don’t think that Joseph Smith intended the passion curbing effects of the WoW, but I couldn’t say that for sure. The temperance movement was also gaining popularity.
I’ve heard that there was a debate raging over whether hot drinks or cold drinks were healthier, but /I/ haven’t been able to find anything to support that Idea.
Given that the Word of Wisdom seems to align very well with mid 19th century medical/popular opinion, and given that it doesn’t align very well with modern medical opinion (new and improved! now with science!), I am starting to think that maybe Joseph felt like he should encourage the saints to be healthier (run and not be weary, walk and not faint) by following a modern, medical dietary code.
amertune wrote:Given that the Word of Wisdom seems to align very well with mid 19th century medical/popular opinion…
I agree with your comments…it seems to be very well aligned with thinking of that time, as does many other things. Rough Stone Rolling has many examples of these, from what I studied.
amertune wrote:and given that it doesn’t align very well with modern medical opinion (new and improved! now with science!)
…hmm…can you elaborate a bit more? It seems that modern medical opinion does not go against or completely disagree with healthy standards taught in the WoW (tobacco, alcohol, coffee, etc). Maybe you can clarify what you mean a little more for me.
I would say there is a difference on whether total abstinence or just moderation is debated in the medical community, but there is pretty good empirical evidence that WoW standards in general add to a healthy lifestyle. No?
In the 19th century there was a massive temperance movement throughout the western world. This is because drink was causing huge social problems, crime and destitution. Maybe it still does, but it’s been largely replaced by drugs. Drink still makes parts of the downtown in my city no go areas at weekends. I think right enough, part of the problem is moderation. In some parts of the world, e.g. France, Germany, Italy, Japan there seems to be little problem considering the amount of drink consumed, in others, e.g. Australia, the British Isles, Russia, Scandinavia, there is.
Heber13 wrote:amertune wrote:Given that the Word of Wisdom seems to align very well with mid 19th century medical/popular opinion…
I agree with your comments…it seems to be very well aligned with thinking of that time, as does many other things. Rough Stone Rolling has many examples of these, from what I studied.
amertune wrote:and given that it doesn’t align very well with modern medical opinion (new and improved! now with science!)
…hmm…can you elaborate a bit more? It seems that modern medical opinion does not go against or completely disagree with healthy standards taught in the WoW (tobacco, alcohol, coffee, etc). Maybe you can clarify what you mean a little more for me.
I would say there is a difference on whether total abstinence or just moderation is debated in the medical community, but there is pretty good empirical evidence that WoW standards in general add to a healthy lifestyle. No?
Perhaps that was worded a little bit strongly. Aspects of the Word of Wisdom align well with modern medical opinion. For example, tobacco is bad and addictive. I don’t think that any doctor would argue for the benefits of tobacco.
Tea and Coffee have a weaker position–there are studies showing they can be beneficial, but not a lot of hard evidence. Moderation is important, but a complete ban doesn’t seem to have a medical basis.
Alcohol also has some benefits, although it has some major risks when taken to any extreme. Again, moderation is key.
I believe that if a similar revelation were received today, it would look a bit different. Maybe it would exhort us to moderate our sugar intake.
Modern medical opinion does not completely agree with the WoW, but it doesn’t seem to support it nearly as well as the 19th century opinion did.
amertune wrote:Moderation is important, but a complete ban doesn’t seem to have a medical basis.
I completely agree with that.
What do you think of Energy drinks? I love ’em!
I think you make a good point amertune. As far as tobacco is concerned – I read an article just yesterday that “claimed” that studies of twins, there is evidence that the twin who “smokes a pipe in moderation” outlives the twin who never smokes a pipe. (of course, that does not hold true when it comes to cigarette smoking.) I’m guessing it has nothing to do with smoking and everything to do with less stress – which is a benefit of pipe smoking.
Energy drinks —- I find it very disturbing when I talk to orthodox mormons who criticize and label those who drink coffee and tea and beer, as “unworthy” and unfit to go to the CK and get a TR — and then overindulge in sugary soda and energy drinks. This is nothing personal to anyone here (and I don’t think you do this Heber) but I really do find that kind of thinking to be VERY Pharisaical. Seriously – I have NO problem with those who choose to imbibe in the whole soda pop or energy drink – as long as they allow me the same luxury when it comes to coffee, tea or beer. In the church – that does not happen, because we are following outdated traditions and man-made commandments – and putting a hell of lot of “spiritual worth” and collateral to them as well. Makes no sense to me.
cwald wrote:I think you make a good point amertune.
As far as tobacco is concerned – I read an article just yesterday that “claimed” that studies of twins, there is evidence that the twin who “smokes a pipe in moderation” outlives the twin who never smokes a pipe. (of course, that does not hold true when it comes to cigarette smoking.) I’m guessing it has nothing to do with smoking and everything to do with less stress – which is a benefit of pipe smoking.
Energy drinks —- I find it very disturbing when I talk to orthodox mormons who criticize and label those who drink coffee and tea and beer, as “unworthy” and unfit to go to the CK and get a TR — and then overindulge in sugary soda and energy drinks. This is nothing personal to anyone here (and I don’t think you do this Heber) but I really do find that kind of thinking to be VERY Pharisaical. Seriously – I have NO problem with those who choose to imbibe in the whole soda pop or energy drink – as long as they allow me the same luxury when it comes to coffee, tea or beer. In the church – that does not happen, because we are following outdated traditions and man-made commandments – and putting a hell of lot of “spiritual worth” and collateral to them as well. Makes no sense to me.
This is my problem. I drink Pepsi on a near-daily basis. It doesn’t help that they keep the stuff stocked at work. It would probably be a lot healthier for me to switch to coffee, but for some reason I’m still drinking Pepsi.
Amen, cwald. Imo, there really isn’t any difference between coffee and many energy drinks – except the temperature and the fact that some energy drinks have more caffeine than coffee. :crazy: Which reminds me that I know a couple of members who drink iced coffee, since that’s not a “hot drink” by any definition. Kind of like Pres. McKay’s take on rum cake, I guess. Maybe that’s your “out”, cwald – unless you just don’t like iced coffee.
amertune wrote:It would probably be a lot healthier for me to switch to coffee, but for some reason I’m still drinking Pepsi.
Yeah. Daily black coffee by the pot is no good. But surely daily Pepsi by the pack is worse.
cwald wrote:This is nothing personal to anyone here (and I don’t think you do this Heber) but I really do find that kind of thinking to be VERY Pharisaical. Seriously – I have NO problem with those who choose to imbibe in the whole soda pop or energy drink – as long as they allow me the same luxury when it comes to coffee, tea or beer.
Dude, I have no problem with you living the way you want, you know that about me. I don’t put much emphasis on the WoW in the grand scheme of things…its way down on the list of things I need to spend time thinking about, IMO. The rest of the church seems to place a lot of emphasis on it, and I’m not sure exactly why, other than it is a outward, measurable standard that separates us from “the world”, so it is a good way to show commitment towards the gospel that you are willing to follow the prophet and symbolically live a clean life. I’m not saying it has no merit…like I mentioned to amertune, it is a healthy lifestyle. For me, personally, it is just not a big deal, and so I have no problem with a good christian, kind-hearted, loving person drinking things in moderation…no problem at all…I think nothing less of them in any way.
However, I live in the real world, and realize the situation within the church is what it is, and I have no issue with devout members being strictly obedient to it either. My brother’s family only drinks sprite…and I respect him that they can be committed to something for a good reason. To each his own. I accept the rules in the church are what they are…and there is no rule about energy drinks, and I’m not interested in having the church take a stance on them either. We should all be able to figure out the spirit of the law, and accept the letter of the law as it is written (coffee, tobacco, alcohol, tea, and drugs). I personally would prefer to have it taught in the church as moderation and not abstinence, but I’m not the prophet and I’m OK with that.
cwald wrote:In the church – that does not happen, because we are following outdated traditions and man-made commandments – and putting a hell of lot of “spiritual worth” and collateral to them as well. Makes no sense to me.
+1, I think we are both thinking the same thing about this.
Here is another follow-up question… Is there any connection in any way with spirituality and worthiness, and taking substances into the body?What do you all think?
Yes, I know you feel this way Heber from previous conversations. I think you have a good rational thought process about the WoW, that is why I did not, purposely, direct the my comment at you. I think you get it. I can’t say the same thing about the majority of the active LDS members though. That was my point. Why is that the case? I think we, as an LDS church, are similar to the Pharisees, especially on the issue of the WoW. And I think you nailed this concept,
Quote:it is a outward, measurable standard that separates us from “the world”, so it is a good way to show commitment towards the gospel that you are willing to follow the prophet
Bingo.
And so, if the prophet told us to wear a pink suit everyday to work, most the members would comply – as an outward sign of obedience and loyalty to the church and prophet. Yes?
You’re right, if that is what people want to do, than fine. I don’t have that kind of loyatly to the church or the prophet. I don’t worship the guy. I just don’t see how the WoW can be such a central part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, like we have made it in our culture. Our entire salvation (CK/TR) is dependent upon compliance. No, I don’t think so. That doesn’t make sense to me.
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