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DancingCarrot wrote:
-What if I don’t think God wanted me to ever get baptized or go through the temple? In the scripture you reference it mentions “as a witness to him”, but I’m curious as to why God would need a witness. It makes more sense that we, ourselves and our communities, need witnesses more than God would.
That’s a very interesting observation. Maybe it is the community that needs a witness. Maybe we need, and others need, to share certain behaviors and beliefs in order to feel like a part of a tribe that is principally defined by certain behaviors and beliefs.
Outward witnesses become signals to others (and ourselves) about our commitment level to the tribe. It’s also a way we can feel a deeper sense of belonging to the tribe.
I don’t want to answer for Dande, but I do have thoughts on the “witness” of taking upon ourselves the name of Christ. I’m not saying you have to believe it, but it is core doctrine that we do so (read/listen to the sacrament prayers). This is just the gospel according to me, but I think it’s important we recognize we are saved by Christ or take upon us his name. I stole this from Givens, but think about it like an adoption where the adoptee takes upon his or herself the name of the adopter. I’m not sure how literal it is, but I do think that’s the meaning of the sacrament prayer – that we are part of Christ’s family (thus he is the Father). I think the symbolism of baptism, taking the sacrament, the “Bread of Life” and “Living Water” etc. are more for our sakes and only really hold meaning for us. My real thing with the covenants is that except in the temple I’m not sure it’s made at all clear that we’re making covenants at the time we do it. I don’t recall being told any such thing before my baptism, and before receiving the priesthood the “oath and covenant” were discussed but more as “this is what you’re supposed to do after getting the priesthood.” I also don’t see anything in scripture that says anything about renewing covenants during the sacrament or what the baptism covenants supposedly are (notwithstanding the above reference). And in the temple, it’s pretty hard to decide at the point you’re asked – having no foreknowledge (for some strange reason) of what the covenants were going to be – to get up and walk/run out. Seriously, has anyone ever seen that happen? (Not that it couldn’t, but it must be extremely rare.)
Going back to my own core beliefs, I’m not sure we actually enter into any covenants with God nor the other way around. I’m not so sure God cares anything about such things and I believe the covenants thing is all made up by the church (just like the whole keys thing). On the other hand, there’s always Pascal’s wager.
(Note I was typing at the same time as Nibbler.)
DarkJedi wrote:
Going back to my own core beliefs, I’m not sure we actually enter into any covenants with God nor the other way around. I’m not so sure God cares anything about such things and I believe the covenants thing is all made up by the church (just like the whole keys thing). On the other hand, there’s always Pascal’s wager.
I think I agree with this. I can’t see why an all powerful, all knowing being would enter into any covenants with humans at all. I think the main purpose behind religious covenants is to place our trust in the Creator, and accept whatever God/the Universe throws our way. It’s meant to bring peace and acceptance, not expectations.
With Pascal’s wager, it only works if all God cared about was humans belief in His existence. But most would say you have to believe the right sort of things about God and do the right things to make it. Pascal himself was Catholic, and if he was right, we are all heretics.
I was thinking about this on Sunday, actually. The overall theme was “The importance of the Sacrament” – and there were thoughtful talks given by all. The talks focused on the symbolism and our relationship to Jesus Christ. It made me wonder if I should stop taking the sacrament, because I am not sure of a lot of things and I don’t want to be disrespectful or dishonest.
I believe in God. I am not sure about Jesus Christ or the Atonement. I believe in communities of serving God – and that since I started out as LDS, I shouldn’t change that until I am certain that I need to (if then).
So I currently take the sacrament with the meaning that “I choose to belong” to this community and I am exercising faith that it matters and that I can “mourn with those that mourn” and “comfort those that stand in need of comfort” and that I advocate “standing for truth and righteousness” in making the best choice possible under the circumstances, and in “trading up” in lifestyle choices. I also take the sacrament to reinforce for my oldest that this is a ritual we do to belong to our tribe. It is a big deal to her because we are both left handed and have the hardest time remembering which hand to use and how to follow the ritual. It is also a comfort to my husband that I take the sacrament. And if there are people who have the time on their hands to watch for those who don’t take the sacrament to judge, well they see the “move along, nothing to see” banner.
So am I showing great disrespect by taking the sacrament even though I don’t traditionally believe right now, and does it even matter?I don’t think you’re being disrespectful Amy. The sacrament is all symbolic and symbolism can mean different things to different people. That is, what the sacrament means to me is very likely not the same thing it means to anyone else. Although we do the sacrament as a group, it is an individual ordinance as we each take it (or don’t take it). I think doing it for your daughter is perfectly fine partly because it does no harm. You not taking it would probably be more harmful to her own testimony/faith/faith journey especially if you have to explain why you’re not taking it. When it comes to others, family, friends, or whoever, I’m a do no harm guy with church/faith things. That’s why even my wife does not know the extent of my doubts and unbelief (people here know more than she does). And I recognize this is part of your “thing” but there is no doctrine or even a policy that we take the sacrament with our right hands. I do because I’m right handed and that’s the way the tray comes to my row. It’s a tradition only.(Sometimes during sustainings I raise my left hand just to be different.)
DancingCarrot wrote:
My questions would be:-What if I don’t think God wanted me to ever get baptized or go through the temple? In the scripture you reference it mentions “as a witness to him”, but I’m curious as to why God would need a witness. It makes more sense that we, ourselves and our communities, need witnesses more than God would.
-In the first scripture it also mentions being of God’s people. My question is when did I ever stop?
Great questions. I echo DJ in saying that the covenants and ordinances can mean different things to different people.
I do not know if God exists or if He does exist that He cares that 8 year old me was baptized. However, it did matter to me.
My dad baptized me and my best friend was sitting in the front row when I came up out of the water. My father ordained me to the priesthood, his name is on my priesthood line of authority. I knelt in the sealing room of the Salt Lake temple and covenanted to receive the woman that is the great love of my life.
These ordinances and covenants have meaning to me because they ritually tie me to people that I care about. Because of that, I find them to be worth keeping, repurposing, and honoring. For me, they are part of the metaphorical “baby” to be retained while discarding the “bathwater”. I am able to keep my baptism as a meaningful experience without associating it with guilt and duty to do whatever my church leaders are trying to twist my arm to do. There is no, “You were baptized so clean the church building this Saturday” for me. There are other ordinances/covenants that I am more ambivalent about (Gift of HG, initiatory, endowment, etc.). I do not dislike them and I am not throwing them out but they are not pivotal in my narrative journey.
When it comes down to it, I get to be the author of my own story. Which parts of my story should I highlight as being important for my trajectory? Was there a fork in the road where I took the path less traveled? What were the important mile posts, mile markers, and landmarks? Were there any rites of passage in my coming of age years? I can order them and prioritize them with the perspective of hindsight to tell the “Hero’s journey” of my own life.
AmyJ wrote:
So am I showing great disrespect by taking the sacrament even though I don’t traditionally believe right now, and does it even matter?
I still take the sacrament, despite not believing in most of the “truth” claims of the Church, or many of the fundamental doctrines of Christianity. I do this for a few reasons. To me, it means:
1. I fully admit that I am a broken and failed individual.
2. I really, desperately want to do better.
3. Despite being failed and broken, I am OK. God still loves me.
4. I want to be more like Jesus Christ.
I honestly don’t care much how anyone else views the sacrament or its intent. The covenants associated are between me and God. Even if I didn’t have the priesthood, or belonged to the Church, I would still partake of the sacrament, even if that meant blessing it on my own. Is that heretical? Maybe. But it is worshiping God according to my own conscience, and there is nothing within the LDS sacrament prayers or practice I disagree with (unlike the Endowment). What does the sacrament mean to you?
The following is a good thread about the right-hand sacrament thing. It has 69 comments.
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