Creative ways to pay tithing

[Anonymous]

Heres the situation:

DH wants to baptize DD. They are have a very close relationship and it is very important to both of them to have this experience. DD turns 8 in November.

Here’s the problem:

Bishop knows all about DH’s disaffection. We went through a similar situation last year and bishop would not allow DH to baptize DS. It caused a world of hurt and spiritual devastation. We don’t want that to happen again. We met with bishop today to plead our case. It boils down to the fact that bishop doesn’t think DH is worthy, but if he will shape up and keep all the commandments for the period of time until DD is 8, the bishop implied DH could do the baptism.

Here is the bigger problem:

Bishop is requiring that we pay full tithing to show our faithfulness. That is not something DH is willing/able to do at this point in his life. DH has strong feelings about how the church is using tithing money improperly. Also, he went through a major crisis of faith. His testimony was completely torn apart. He’s rebuilding it and I’m proud of all the progress he has made. His faith is rebuilding based on principles taught by Jesus in the New Testament. DH is focusing on the basics of Christianity. And tithing is not something he’s able to tackle right now. I know its a basic principle for the bishop and probably for a lot of you, but at this point for DH its a huge obstacle.

Here’s the question:

What are some ‘creative’ ways to pay an honest tithe so DH can be able to perform the baptism? I don’t want to get into the history/doctrine/blessings of tithing. We know all that. I’m trying desperately to come up with a middle ground between DH and bishop. Any ideas?

[Anonymous]

There’s the pay on net, not gross method. I don’t know how your Bishop interprets ” a full tithe” but that might be one way.

You could get a part-time job. Hate to say it, but that’s what I do so my tithing isn’t eating into my full-time pay.

Go down to one car if you have two. I bike, bus and sometimes share rides to get around. I make the world come to me. Saves a ton of money each year.

Anyway you slice it, it’s a sacrifice, unfortunately.

[Anonymous]

I am not one normally to advocate temporary commitments, but in this case, if your Bishop is conflating temple worthiness with worthiness to baptize one’s child, I would not be adverse to encouraging him to pay tithing until after the baptism has been performed. A simple, “Paying tithing is worth it to baptize my daughter” doesn’t have to include any comment about continuation to be honest and sincere.

Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with paying on net and not gross income. That is left up to each person to decide, and rightly so, imo. The question for the temple recommend interview does not ask the “how” but only the “do” – and a question relative to baptizing someone should not be more prescriptive than the temple recommend interview.

Again, this is not my usual advice regarding tithing, but I would suggest he commit honestly to pay tithing “in order to baptize my daughter” – on his net income and with no guarantee to continue to pay after the baptism has been performed. I would suggest saying it exactly as I’ve phrased it, if necessary, and not mentioning anything more. Just, “I am willing to pay tithing in order to baptize my daughter.”

If I were the one talking with your husband directly, I also would ask him to read Elder Packer’s talk from this past General Conference entitled, “The Power of the Priesthood”. (http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-1207-2,00.html) I would ask him to think of the Bishop’s request not as a punishment but rather as a compromise offer of what Elder Packer called a “battlefield commission” – a way for him to baptize his daughter without having to make a HUGE, long-term commitment. It seems to me like if he really desires to do this, paying tithing for a short time is worth it – even if he isn’t committed to continuing long-term.

[Anonymous]

You might also consider paying your tithing directly to Salt Lake rather than your local ward. Tithing does not have to be paid locally. You’ll get record of your tithing and at settlement just declare to your bishop whether or not a full tithing was paid. The local unit will not get a record of anything that wasn’t paid locally. Obviously, fast offerings and other local donations cannot be done in this manner, but must be placed in the local envelopes.

I would consider this method not to lie about paying it, but just to avoid any potential issues that may come up if the bishop sees how much your paying and wonders if it is a correct or full tithe. Obviously, he should not do that, but if you’re worried that he might use this issue as a way to keep your husband from exercising this priesthood authority because bishop believes he is not worthy anyway, then paying to SLC and keeping the amount confidential may solve that problem.

I have been told by family members that some Bishops have demanded “back-pay” tithing. That is, if a family hasn’t paid tithing since January, and it’s now June and the husband wants to be worthy to baptise in July, the bishop has asked for past due tithing in addition to what might be due currently. I think this is ridiculous and is probably against current manual policy. Similarly, others have asked for a committment and demonstration of continued tithes for a period of time equal to what they missed (for those missing for shorter periods of time like months not years). Again, I don’t agree with this, but understand that Bishops probably need and want to ascertain that the committment is genuine and real, and not just a temporary gesture in order to get what they want for a bit, with full intention of going back to “evil” or non-tithing ways immediately after the occasion is over.

If you pay directly to SLC, and can answer the “Are you a full tithe payer” question honestly in the affirmative, the bishop has no choice but to let your husband baptise your son. Like Ray, I didn’t know that temple worthiness was the same as baptise worthiness, but can’t remember what the handbook says about that.

[Anonymous]

I am willing to offer some creative ideas and historical perspective, but I am not comfortable becoming a new authority to replace the Church. If we tell you creative alternatives that other people consider acceptable, they really should only be that — other ideas. The real authority in all this is you, and it is ultimately between you guys and God. I am sure you get that, but I wanted to write it out for the larger audience that reads these forums.

Each of us has the authority and power to decide what tithing means to us, and to practice that belief. That will benefit us spiritually.

Now on to my “creative” comments…

Tithing was not monetized fully until the correlation period (I date that to around the 1930’s-1940’s). Before that, tithing was truly a local and less defined concept. People would give livestock and crops commonly to the Bishop to be used to help the poor and needy in their community. There wasn’t any way to invest that or use it for any other purpose really except building the community. Also as you would imagine, the practice was a little looser and the definition of what a “full tithe” constituted was harder to pin down. A person could also donate their time and skills to the Bishop for use in building the community if they had not tangible products or money to tithe. Unfortunately IMO, the monetization of tithing sometimes distracts from the spirit of the act.

You could also, in theory, give to other charity organizations in your community. That act of tithing is of letting go of our possessive feelings towards material substances. It is also about giving to God to help build his kingdom on earth. How you do that is up to you.

I personally consider my service to others as a form of tithe. I really am not in a position to responsibly give much money to the Church right now in my life. I have time though. I “give” 10% or more of my time to serving people, largely through places like this website, but also talking on the phone with people who need help, and other ways. I am glad to give this part of my time to God.

To me, the form of giving is less important than the act and the spiritual exercise of giving. Tithing is a powerful spiritual concept with rich spiritual rewards.

[Anonymous]

Sorry to hear about this Pearl. I’m telling you this whole thing stinks in my opinion. Didn’t we as a church condemn other religions, especially the Catholics, for doing this exact sort of thing – the whole “PAY US MONEYto receive forgiveness and gain blessings and prove how righteous one is…” I tell you it stinks and I could not support a local leader who abused his power in such a manner.

I like the advice given, especially what Brain had to say, but I’m going to go against the grain and give you my two cents. You ready for this — I don’t think you should baptize the kid. Wow. I said it. I’m not joking – perhaps you need to draw line in the sand – and that may change the way your local leaders view the situation. Really, is waiting to baptize the kid the worse thing in the world? I had a similar situation with my daughter, it had nothing to do with tithing, but it did have to do with local leaders not understanding the dynamics of individuals they were called to preside over.

This is really ridiculous. They pull guys out of bars and sober them up for couple of weeks, to baptize their kids all the time.

Here is a post I made a couple of months ago that explains what I’m talking about. Best of luck

Quote:

One of my least favorite talks of all time. Caused me some gray hair. When my oldest daughter turned eight, my in-laws wanted to come out and be part of the baptism. We live about 800 miles from our closest relative. So was twelve of them that decide to drive out here to Oregon, and they give us a weekend they could make it. We also live 120 miles from from the closest baptismal font. So we ask if we can baptize her out here where the branch members live so they could be part of it, and this would have been our first baptism in the branch — EVER. The answer – “No way.” Okay, so we say fine, we will all drive up to the Stake Center, but would it be okay if we have the baptism on the weekend that the family can get a couple of days off work so they can be part of it. The answer – “No way.” I pointed out to the SP that we have baptisms in the stake on different weekends and even weekdays, and that they baptize people in the Deuschute River all the time. He says “they only do that with new converts, and that no baptisms of record will be allowed except on the first Saturday of the month at the Stake Center. No exceptions.” I felt pretty burned and a little bit bitter I admit, some of it was directed at Mr. Packer. My father-in-law, who is actually a Bishop from Utah, suggested that we just wait a year and then baptize the kid — which would make her a convert baptism and not a baptism of record. So that’s what we did. Four months after she turn eight and several “conversations” with concerned church leaders about the “spiritual welfare and eternal salvation” of my daughter (I honest to god think they were afraid she would get in accident and die unbaptized 😮 ), the SP called our Branch Pres and gave us permission to go ahead and let us plan the baptism as we saw fit.

[Anonymous]

Am I crazy, or did Mr. Packer do a complete 180 on this whole “unwritten order of things” and his most recent talk in April? Wow. Evolution of the church? Now if only the local leaders will get on board

[Anonymous]

Fwiw, I also would support cwald’s comment about not baptizing her right away. My own slant would be to err on the side of what your daughter wants. I understand the pros and cons of that statement, but I still would do so.

(You also could tell the Bishop that baptisms aren’t annulled if it’s discovered in retrospect that the one performing the baptism wasn’t worthy – but I don’t think that would go over very well.)

[Anonymous]

Yeah Ray, that is good point – about talking with the daughter and making sure she doesn’t become a pawn in the whole game. It might not be such a big deal to her, and then again, maybe it is.

I hope things work out for you.

[Anonymous]

I think it is a good thing you are looking to work through this now so there are no surprises come November.

It is a tough one. My understanding is the law is straight forward:

Quote:

To fulfill this commandment, Church members give one-tenth of their income to the Lord through His Church.

While the “net” or “gross” income is not specified, I really don’t think the Lord cares about that.

What I think matters is

SilentDawning wrote:

Anyway you slice it, it’s a sacrifice

Is it possible to have your DH open up more to the bishop? Tell him that you really want to do this, but here are the problems he has with paying money to the church…and lay out on the table the issues that really bother DH about how the money is used? Is it possible to plead with the bishop to help find a way to overcome these problems so the blessings to the family can be shared?

I would hope the bishop could see you and your husband are willing to sacrifice, as much as you can, and that is what really matters, but you also are trying to be honest with yourself and with God. Can the bish be part of the solution, not the guy on the other side of the desk you have to work against?

[Anonymous]

Pearl:

How long did he say you have to pay tithing? Or did he leave it ambiguous?

Also, I have a question here — if your husband has lost his faith in the Church, as you said earlier, how does he feel about exercising the priesthood to execute an ordinance like baptism? Just curious — it struck me as unusual. If I’d lost faith in the Church, I probably wouldn’t be too concerned about exercising the priesthood, so I thought I’d ask so I can understand the situation better. Perhaps you meant he’d lost faith in certain principles, not in the Church or the authority of the priesthood as a whole.

By the way, I was less active when my daughter needed to be blessed in the Church. I went to Church semi-regularly, and said all the right things in meetings. But I wasn’t paying my tithing, and actually had concerns about the role of money in the Church. And I told the Bishop so privately. Our Bishop let me baptize my daughter anyway. I always thought tithing was a temple-recommend question, not one for worthiness determination for performing an ordinance in the Aaronic priesthood. I’m wondering, why do you think the Bishop picked tithing as the commandment your husband has to keep to be considered worthy?

By the way, I don’t agree though, that you can simply consider the time you give, or money donated to other organizations as tithing though. It’s pretty standard that it needs to be donated to the Church, in my view. The net gross thing is not engraved in stone, though.

[Anonymous]

Just tell them you are a full tithe payer and let them prove you wrong. And make sure you pay it directly to the church never on the local level. As far as I am concerned what you pay is between you and the lord and all the manipulations of net and gross are irrelevant. It is creepy how any leader would be so money oriented. Besides I am not aware of any requirement to pay tithing to perform ordinances. Sounds like it is made up on the local level to me.

[Anonymous]

I also had a thought many times over — we are to give 10% of our “increase”. Could increase be defined as the amount left over after non-discretionary expenses? Take your net income, and subtract all your living expenses and expenses related to generating income. What is left over is your increase — the amount of permanent wealth you have generated. Pay tithing on that.

That might ease the burden if the idea speaks to your conscience. I’ve never done it that way — I’ve always been all or nothing. But this is something I might consider if I was in your shoes.

Also, I have a comment regarding the How To Stay in the Church article on the front page of StayLDS. It comments that you shouldn’t broadcast your misgivings and doubts about the Church. Is this perhaps a root cause of the fact your bishop is taking such a hard-line on the baptizing your daughter/worthiness duet? Could it be that some of the comments made were considered nearing apostasy, so he’s making you REALLY prove you believe the Church?

I’m thankful for that bit of advice in the article.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

My father-in-law, who is actually a Bishop from Utah, suggested that we just wait a year and then baptize the kid — which would make her a convert baptism and not a baptism of record. So that’s what we did. Four months after she turn eight and several “conversations” with concerned church leaders about the “spiritual welfare and eternal salvation” of my daughter (I honest to god think they were afraid she would get in accident and die unbaptized 😮 ), the SP called our Branch Pres and gave us permission to go ahead and let us plan the baptism as we saw fit.

I like the approach Cwald is taking here — about meeting Church policy and your own objectives at the same time.

One thing, even if you wait a year, the Bishop would still have to agree to let your husband baptize your daughter. Waiting a year would only put the responsibility for “approving” the baptism and worthiness of your DAUGHTER under the authority of the local mission, and not the Bishop. However, the Bishop would still make the call about whether your husband is worthy to do the baptism. So I don’t see this solving the problem.

Really, your best alternative may well be to get into a different Ward. I find it’s a fresh start. If your husband started coming to Church and kept his doubts to himself, the next Bishop may well agree to it without any strings attached.

We ran into Cwald’s scenario a few years ago. The Stake President made all baptisms happen at the Stake Center, and we didn’t want it to be a “line ’em up aand baptize them scenario”. Instead, we flew back to our prior ward where all our family was and held the baptism there, on our own terms — because Stake Child of Record Baptisms were not enforced there — you could have your own ceremony. Different scenario than yours, but there are ways of being consistent with Church policy to solve this problem — and taking up in a different Ward is one potential method — particularly if you can be creative and honest at the same time.

[Anonymous]

I don’t think it would work to go to a different ward, an old ward, grandma’s ward, or whatever ward to baptise your child because the authority in the ward you’re doing the ordinance is supposed to make a call to your Bishop or make sure you are worthy by looking at your temple recommend. Actually, from my limited previous experience dealing with this I think the person has to carry a permission from their home ward allowing the ordinance to be performed elsewhere. This is different than a child blessing, which doesn’t require so much oversight. I don’t know for sure if SD was suggesting that idea… I thought at first he was, then on second read I wasn’t sure.

Even moving to a new ward wouldn’t necessarily work because new bishops regularly call old bishops about new members, especially when there has been a lapse in temple recommend. Plus, what a hassle and cost to incur just to baptise a child… why not just pay tithing for a period of time, using language as Ray suggested? Bishop might ask for more time, but would probably compromise if daughter really wants daddy to do the deed and will not get baptised any other way. And, pay direct to SLC to avoid any concerns about amount.

[Author]

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