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Admin statement: We have been very patient with this post and thread. There has been good discussion, and I appreciate it greatly. However, even soft charges of brain-washing will bring this conversation to a screaching halt. I will shut it down quickly – for a very important reason that is deeply personal to me.
“Brain-washing” is even more loaded than “cult” – and it has absolutely no basis in fact. I have seen religious brain-washing effects first-hand – and the LDS Church isn’t even in the same universe.
We had this conversation already in a different post (
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=208&start=0 http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=502 Yes. We do have to be careful with some topics here. The cult/brain-washing topic is one of them because those are highly-charged words. Some of our audience that we try to reach (especially the mass of people that just read the forums), can be offended or put off. It’s best to cushion the language in less certain formats when we talk about it.
Old-Timer wrote:Admin statement: We have been very patient with this post and thread. There has been good discussion. However, even veiled or soft charges of brain-washing will bring this conversation to a screaching halt. I will shut it down quickly.
We had this conversation already in a different post (
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=208&start=0 http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=502 Seriously, drop that topic or this gets shut down.
Sorry, I didn’t see this earlier thread and wasn’t trying to offend people. I mostly brought it up because these accusations are out there and spreading (there are whole books on the topic) and I wasn’t really sure what to think about the idea and wondered what other members thought about it. Rather than thinking absolutely not or “yes for sure the LDS Church is definitely a cult” I suspected that the real answer was actually somewhere in between.
It seemed to me that some members occasionally do exhibit some cult-like behaviors whether intentionally or not and this can easily create a mildly cult-like environment but I think the actual overall harm done by this is not really that much compared to any other religion or lack of religion. Personally, I think the LDS Church is mostly good for people and the members are some of the nicest and happiest people around.
As far as the us-versus-them mentality and claims of being exclusively right, divinely approved, etc. it seems like many different church leaders make similar claims whether Catholic, Baptist, Evangelical, etc. It just seems like Mormons are more likely to believe ideas like this rather than just ignore them. I guess this makes sense with the official doctrines of continuing revelation and priesthood restoration whereas other churches will probably just try to claim that they somehow understand the Bible better than others.
I find that rather than making accusations or protesting them (whichever side of the fence I am on at the moment), it’s most helpful for me to consider the possible grain of truth behind whatever others are saying. I find the following truths in what has been said on this thread:
1. I can be aware of and examine any tendency I have to see groups or people as “the enemy”.
2. I can be aware of and examine any feelings I have to defend myself and all things/people I “own” from “attacks”.
3. I can be sensitive to the power of the word to offend people, and choose my words carefully.
4. I can affirm the core goodness of myself and others in all I do and say.
Tom
Excellent summary, Tom. DA, it’s cool.
For many years I have been able to see why anyone non-lds would see the Mormons as a cult. I get questions all the time about Word of Wisdom, Garments, penalties, why would some one go to their Bishop about so many trivial things, any and all of these from an outside perspective seem cultish to me. Lately, what really seems cultish is the fear to think, that seems so pervasive. I have spoken to so many people that say my difficulties with the church policies are just a matter of misunderstandings they would be happy to clear up. As we talk they apparently think these issues can be cleared up by Sunday School answers, and when they are not people completely blank out and don’t hear anything I have to say. At some point I have found most of my fellow mormons are not willing to even walk through my questions. On many occasions when I am calm they suddenly start yell that I am unreasonable and can not let me finish a single sentence, akin to the grad school nah, nah, nah I can’t hear you, only frightened and angry. This response always scares me to death. These are often intelligent, seemingly open minded individuals that turn psyco really fast. I really don’t get it. This is what really seems cultish to me.
Gail, not once in my 40+ years in the LDS Church have I ever had anyone yell at me as you describe – or heard anyone else literally yell at someone else over differences in beliefs or questions. I’m sure it happens here and there, but I simply can’t fathom it happening on a regular basis with a large group of members. I have served in many different positions in the Church in many different locations, and I don’t know anyone who has had that type of experience regularly from numerous sources. Otoh, I have had that happen to me and others I know from sources outside the LDS Church when they learn we are Mormon. I am sorry you are in a place where you have experienced that.It ought not be – and it certianly isn’t “normal” or representative of the Church. Gail I’ve had people yell at me also. Not “people” but “person”, my husband. It was in the begining stages of my disaffection and he was very upset and “strict” about what he knew to be “right” or “true”. It was definately a horrible eye opening experience. So I understand you. All I know is I am the only member on my side of the family who is Mormon and at least ten family members, of all different ages, have warned me about the “cult”. So naturally I have to wonder why this is such common thought … and my common sense brings me to believe that it is because the church/ members have caused people to wonder or observe some type of pattern in regards to being “culty” wheather through past history or personal experience, gossip etc. I love members and I know there are tons of great people in the church. People aren’t perfect and the word cult can fit into almost anything. It’s a human thing I guess. Some people like having all of the answers (even if they didn’t do critical thinking about every answer), routine, and a guideline through life. Outsiders might think they are being unhealthy, dependent or “cluty”. Some people might dislike having any answers, don’t trust a soul when it comes to “truths”, and fly through life by the seat of their pants. Outsiders might think they are dammed or selfish etc. We fear the unknown. I guess it is kind of telling though when someone who is not an outsider thinks, their group or previous group is in a way dangerous. Which I think would be reason to rethink being a part of it .. or to at least become more honest or independent in that regard.
I haven’t had anyone yell or be disrespectful to me either, but I could see that happening sometimes. A lot of active members, including leaders, just don’t know how to deal with the problems we have when doubting. Not only can it be threatening to their faith to try and understand, but they don’t always have the people skills (training) to either. Does that make them cultists? I don’t think so. The majority of members in most churches aren’t interested in the gritty history and controversies of their founding. According to Dr. James Fowler, more than 60% of adults find permanent equilibrium in what he labels “Stage 3” faith (a typically literal and external group/leader-authority belief structure). These people, who are happy with how their faith works, by definition, can’t examine their faith from an outside perspective as a system of ideas and practices. It is hard for them to question their own group’s faith. Questions that threaten or challenge their faith structure and their religious mythology automatically drop out of the sorting process in their heads into the “other/outsider” bin. That is the “story of stories” as Dr. Fowler calls it — falling into place in the grand unifying story of why people don’t believe in their group’s story.
I had one recent example this year. I talked with the Bishop in my last ward a few times. He wanted to help my wife come back to Church. He wanted to know why she didn’t believe anymore, what happened. I tried a couple of times to bring up examples, on a very tame surface level, and his response drifted to “I don’t know a lot about Church history and all that stuff, but …” he was sure he could reach her with his feelings and testimony. Don’t get me wrong. I love the guy. He is a wonderful and caring person, and a great bishop. But how was he ever going to help my wife when her problems were almost all in the category of “Church history and all that stuff?” He would have been respectful and compassionate. I don’t doubt that, but he was also unable to understand. That’s OK.
Gail wrote:Lately, what really seems cultish is the fear to think, that seems so pervasive…At some point I have found most of my fellow mormons are not willing to even walk through my questions. On many occasions when I am calm they suddenly start yell that I am unreasonable and can not let me finish a single sentence, akin to the grad school nah, nah, nah I can’t hear you, only frightened and angry. This response always scares me to death. These are often intelligent, seemingly open minded individuals that turn psyco really fast. I really don’t get it. This is what really seems cultish to me.
The way I see it the Church is a comfortable environment and everything goes fairly smoothly as long as you agree with them but as soon as you openly disagree over some major point of dogma this is to many Mormons quite simply not acceptable. For example, if you stop believing in certain claims of the Church some Mormons will now see you as weak and sinful and start to make assumptions about your character or lack thereof. If you publish contrary opinions you could be excommunicated. It seems like most dissent has always been strongly suppressed from the top down and basically driven out of the Church for the most part.
I don’t know where this mindset came from but in my case the result is that I wouldn’t dare to openly express any doubts about the Church to most of my family and in-laws. They probably wouldn’t yell at me but I know they would be very disappointed with me. So the easiest route is to simply play along with their beliefs essentially out of tribal loyalty more than genuine faith in the Church. To me this situation seems cult-like even if similar social pressures have been fairly common in some of the largest “mainstream” religions as well. I’m not trying to claim that this means the Church is bad or harmful in general, I just wish some of the members would be a little more understanding toward people with different beliefs.
I’m not sure that “cult” is the right word for it, since it’s so loaded. I think “institutional control” might be less abrasive and therefore more accurate. The church certainly engages in institutional behavioral control — and, to a certain extent, “belief control.” The temple recommend interview process is perhaps the most visible example. Consider…
1. The church holds the temple up as the doorway to exaltation
2. In order to get in, a person must answer to institutional authority regarding certain “worthiness requirements”
3. One must continue to answer to institutional authority on a regular, systematic basis throughout their life
4. Deviation from the requirements leads to revocation of status within the community
The doctrinal emphasis on temple worship and receiving / retaining a temple recommend is huge. So the requirements that are established become magnified. Whereas you might believe independently that drinking a cup of coffee in the morning is acceptable to God, if you want to retain a temple recommend, you won’t drink coffee anyway. As a result, you are making a decision that is contrary to your personal beliefs in order to remain in compliance with the group. I’m not arguing the rightness or wrongness of either drinking coffee OR subjugating your beliefs to the community’s standards, merely pointing out that the church has, in a very literal way, controlled your behavior in this instance. Similarly, there are “belief” questions and requirements that seek to keep people from deviating too far from the institutional norm in terms of orthodoxy.
Based on past experience managing the site, this is one of those topics that generally doesn’t attract and generate a discussion about reconciliation strategies and reengaging the Church in a positive way. That’s the theme of the site, the purpose it exists. The problems everyone mentioned are real on some level or another. Whether it is an institutional problem or a personal problem with individual members, it ends up boiling down to the philosophical question of “What came first, the chicken or the egg?” So I want to acknowledge that. It is a good topic and an important one. We’ve all had experiences, some more and some less. The idea isn’t taboo, just the way it gets discussed — which tends to pile up negative.
This thread seems to be going in that direction as well. We sort of tried to steer it towards the positive and let it roll along a bit, but we’re going to lock it down. It just isn’t producing content that fits the mission of the site. Sorry everyone.
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