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My daughter walked up to me yesterday and said “Daddy, I really like being a Mormon”. It was a hit you between the eyes moment. On one hand, I’ve had this trial of faith about a year ago that has challenged my commitment over and over again. It’s thrown my thinking into chaos to the point there are certain things I don’t believe anymore. At times, I’ve wanted to just be able to walk away from it all for a while and focus on a pure relationship between God and myself personally, without a Church organization in between to tell me what I can and cannot do, or how I should behave on issues that sometimes seem inconsequential.
And then, my sweet little girl, about 12 years old, makes that comment above. She believes in prayer, does good things, has a good heart, and is always trying to do the RIGHT thing in so many circumstances. She’s spiritual and describes how she feels the Spirit and she LIKES being a Mormon.
How would you reconcile the tension of having your faith under fire, and wanting to distance yourself from your religion, when you have children in whom your household culture and Church attendance has created Stage 3 faith and good, behavioral fruits???
I think you are very blessed and so is your daughter. I wish some of my children were not so distant from those feelings and experiences. It made me sort of happy & sad to read at the same time, thinking about the nice aspects of how things used to be, and what my family has lost through our journey (we have gained things too, so it isn’t all tragedy).
What would be the story you wrote if your daughter instead had laughed about church, and said all those people there are stupid for believing such a load of crazy ideas and fairy tales?
SilentDawning, It sounds like you have a wonderful daughter. I would actively teach her about other churches and religions, how believing in them gives their followers good feelings and happy experiences also. I once conducted a discussion with my three adult sons. I offer the premise that “there never was an LDS church, that Joseph Smith lived and died a Presbyterian (like his mother).” I asked where my sons would be if a restoration never happened. My oldest son said, “Jacobean Priest (so well educated),” my middle son said, “A Buddhist (meditation thing),” my youngest son said, “Evangelical Protestant (they live their religion everyday).” It pleased me no end, because it meant they had caught my vision of diverse spirituality, that human kind (and their religions) are not so different. We all seek a clan, a tribe.
Brian Johnston wrote:What would be the story you wrote if your daughter instead had laughed about church, and said all those people there are stupid for believing such a load of crazy ideas and fairy tales?
That’s a great question. 5 years ago I would have been shocked and defensive. But now, I would not be shocked at all and would have answers. I would be a bit disappointed, because it’s a harder road to hoe to be active and not completely accepting EVERYTHING the Church teaches. HOwever, I would have answers — basically, the conclusions I’ve reached over the time I’ve been posting here.
I’d comment that all Churches believe in such fairy tales — they are all just different interpretations of the Biblical story tales. That I think the LDS fairy tales lead to a higher level of clean living than others, that the LDS way will be good for her children and husband some day with its greater emphasis on family. I would have answers about tithing, unquestioning obedience to Church leaders, etcetera…all as she encountered them along the way in her journey of life through teenage years and adulthood. There would be questions I couldn’t answer, but I would engage in deep thought until I had such answers. I would probably look at her as being very mature, having hit on some of the questions I have had to wrestle with, only 30 years before I hit them.
Personally, I’d rather have her in Stage 3 for the rest of her life, it’s a lot easier. My problem is dealing with the tension of not being there myself, but wanting to NOT discourage her by expressing my true thoughts!
Her experience sounds positive, but as others have said, it shouldn’t lead to arrogance and bigotry. SilentDawning wrote:Personally, I’d rather have her in Stage 3 for the rest of her life, it’s a lot easier. My problem is dealing with the tension of not being there myself, but wanting to NOT discourage her by expressing my true thoughts!
Yeah, but that
I hope this doesn’t sound too crass as an example, but it would seem to me like talking about sex with our children (teaching them about the “birds and the bees”) — you talk to them on the level of detail it is appropriate. As Hawkgrrrl says, the person with the greater knowledge has the greater responsibility.
Instead of looking at the differences, perhaps focus on the ideas you share in common, and share them in a language that is both authentic to you, and also in the framework they can understand. This shouldn’t be about being “superior” because we see it different, perhaps with more information. I try to see it like how I connect with people I have relationships with that are actually in different religions or denominations.
Our neighbors in Atlanta were devout Catholic. I had no problem talking to their oldest son, who was over at our house all the time, encouraging him to finish his process of First Communion (A big step in Catholic life) and finishing his catechism studies. He really didn’t want to. I told him it was really important to his parents and his whole extended family. I was happy for him and really enjoyed attending the ceremony at their church.
I guess I try to think of it like that. I’m not Catholic, and I don’t believe everything the same … but 95%+ of our beliefs
canconnect in some way on a broader level. That’s like orthodox LDS Mormonism and my current viewpoints and beliefs. Quote:I guess I try to think of it like that. I’m not Catholic, and I don’t believe everything the same … but 95%+ of our beliefs
canconnect in some way on a broader level. That’s like orthodox LDS Mormonism and my current viewpoints and beliefs. I think celebrating what we have in common is important, however, I do still feel tension when she goes on about TBM things I don’t believe anymore. I just remain silent. I suppose that’s going to have to be the way of the future if I’m going to walk this tightrope the rest of my life….
Regarding George’s suggestion to teach her about other religions. I’m not sure if I want to do that. Youth are very fragile and I think I’d rather just let the LDS theology settle on her until she starts questioning other things. I have taught other religions in the past, but only when she’s ran into differences of opinions with her friends. And then, I taught the other religions from the perspective of a Mormon….
Yeah, it really is one of those sucky kind of conundrums we face. Do you ruin someone’s experience and faith by saying something at the wrong moment in order to have a sense of integrity and be authentic? Or do you sit there and listen quietly without responding, which implies a false sense of agreement, preserving the moment for the other person, but leads to a potential later problem in your relationship due to misunderstanding? There is an upside and built-in downside to each decision. I make those decisions too, and have experienced the negative consequences of both styles. I don’t have a consistent answer.
I tried being positive about the church and expressing a more faithful view with my parents recently, and it frankly backfired and caused some serious problems. But they are grown adults, and I don’t have to worry so much about being quite as delicate.
Brian Johnston wrote:Instead of looking at the differences, perhaps focus on the ideas you share in common, and share them in a language that is both authentic to you, and also in the framework they can understand.
This is good advice.I think it is similar to how I feel when my daughter asks me about being married someday.
I don’t immediately go towards telling her about all the fights, money problems, and sleepless nights with sick kids. As they get older, I also don’t like to paint the rosy fairy tale picture that it is just all easy. I try to help them see that it is what they make of it, and the choices they make and the people they associate with impact their experience. It is not always easy and it is not always smooth sailing and perfect, in marriage or the church, but it is not something that you just throw away and don’t get involved in. There is beauty and growth and happiness to be found, and I don’t want my kids to miss any of the beauty of being in the church that makes them happy, nor in a marriage that can bless their lives.
But as they get older, I hope to be close to them to help them through their journey as they try to figure things out. I hope my own journey prepares me to be ready for those moments. At age 12, they don’t need to be shocked with all I’ve learned at age 40, but perhaps in a positive light, I can prepare them for things by helping them think for themselves and understand their internal feelings…and not live in fear. It is a responsible balance as a parent, but I’m happy my kids feel the same way your daughter does, and they love church and seek the spirit. They are an inspiration to me.
George wrote:I once conducted a discussion with my three adult sons. I offer the premise that “there never was an LDS church, that Joseph Smith lived and died a Presbyterian (like his mother).” I asked where my sons would be if a restoration never happened. My oldest son said, “Jacobean Priest (so well educated),” my middle son said, “A Buddhist (meditation thing),” my youngest son said, “Evangelical Protestant (they live their religion everyday).”
Very interesting. My kids (12, 10, and
are way too young to have a discussion like that, but I think I may ask my wife that sometime. I doubt she’s ever contemplated it. I’d imagine the honest answer for me, her, and lot of other people would be, “whatever religion my parents happened to belong to.”SilentDawning wrote:My daughter walked up to me yesterday and said “Daddy, I really like being a Mormon”.
It was a hit you between the eyes moment. On one hand, I’ve had this trial of faith about a year ago that has challenged my commitment over and over again. It’s thrown my thinking into chaos to the point there are certain things I don’t believe anymore. At times, I’ve wanted to just be able to walk away from it all for a while and focus on a pure relationship between God and myself personally, without a Church organization in between to tell me what I can and cannot do, or how I should behave on issues that sometimes seem inconsequential.
And then, my sweet little girl, about 12 years old, makes that comment above. She believes in prayer, does good things, has a good heart, and is always trying to do the RIGHT thing in so many circumstances. She’s spiritual and describes how she feels the Spirit and she LIKES being a Mormon.
How would you reconcile the tension of having your faith under fire, and wanting to distance yourself from your religion, when you have children in whom your household culture and Church attendance has created Stage 3 faith and good, behavioral fruits???
I seldom come here but what to address something here…you should not let the church get in the way. The church places demands on our time and that is an intrusion to be sure…but one that can also bring great blessings. The type of relationship you have with God has nothing to do with church unless you allow it too. Be steady dad…the church is filled with imperfect people like myself…judge it from that standpoint. The Church is not Christ…but is there to bring us closer. Right now your daughter knows all of the positive aspects of membership in the kingdom…someday she will suffer from her own struggles. How you deal with yours now will influence how she deals with them later. As a friend of my loves to say, “The church is true…not always the people in it”.
SilentDawning wrote:At times, I’ve wanted to just be able to walk away from it all for a while and focus on a pure relationship between God and myself personally, without a Church organization in between to tell me what I can and cannot do, or how I should behave…
I’d say it takes some time for things to settle down. Over time similar issues have become much less pressing or irritating to me. I know it’s easy to feel like we’re being “told” what to do in the church, but more lately it really doesn’t hit me that way anymore.
I see all the preaching and exhorting from church much much more as friendly personal suggestions these days, even if the exhorter doesn’t intend it that way. I am learning to look past the failings of men, and when they feel they can impose their opinions on me in any authoritative way that is clearly a failing, – and I forgive them of that. We are told may times to gain our own testimony of individual principles and commandments. To follow the spirit in our lives. That nobody is entitled to revelation for our lives but ourselves. …I’m going to stick to that.
It does take some time to authentically shift your internal readings in this way, but with some effort it is possible; and the peace that comes with the new outlook is tremendous. The direct relationship with God is what matters, and when there are no men in the middle life is good. Even life in the church gets good!
Thanks for your comment, Pa Pa. I can relate to much of what you wrote. Everyone will face their own questions and doubts and trials. I can hope how I handle mine is a force for good in my children’s lives, but I am not about to manufacture them in their lives when it might be the wrong time AND/OR the wrong question, doubt or trial. I hope to live my life so that when they struggle with something, my children will come to me and talk about it – and I can help them develop their own unique perspective that will give them peace and joy as individuals.
Pa Pa wrote:How you deal with yours now will influence how she deals with them later. As a friend of my loves to say, “The church is true…not always the people in it”.
Forgive me if I step up to respectfully disagree with this one. That statement “The Church is perfect but the people aren’t” to me is a license for Church leaders and employees to act recklessly without accountability, impunity or even an obligation to live up to the Church’s own ideals. It means the leaders can do whatever they feel like and the onus rests entirely on the individual to just “suck it up” as cwald would say.
I think a much better statement is “The gospel is perfect, but the Church isn’t”. The Church is really, just the people that run it. So, to separate the Church from the people is an artificial distinction when it comes to the behavior or leaders and members alike. I am not threated by the statement “the Church is not perfect”. I am comfortable with it, and my life experiences has shouted to me, first hand, that it is not a perfect organization.
Now that realization brings peace and helps me stay in the Church.
SD – to be fair, the quote from Pa Pa said the church is “true” – NOT “perfect”. I agree with your distinction (and your concerns), and I might go even further and say something like the “pure Gospel” is perfect, but, as we’ve discussed already in multiple threads “true” doesn’t have to mean “perfect”. If someone wants to draw a distinction between a “true” church and it’s “not always true” people, I can accept that – even as I would add my own clarifications.
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