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I’m going through the exact same issue right now. I’m really hesitant about dating in the church during my faith transition. I feel I am being disingenuous if I date someone, because I cannot be a Molly Mormon anymore and I don’t want a Peter Priesthood either. I do like the church’s values and teachings, but I am no longer a strict adherent to everything the church says. Marrying into church is also scary for me as a woman because women are ultimately presided over in an lds marriage. This kind of marriage is inherently unequal and is not something I am comfortable with. Most of my social interactions come through the church right now. It is scary even thinking about how to meet new people outside of the church, especially those who don’t appreciate what it means to have been brought up in the church. I’m still working out how to proceed, but I definitively understand your struggle.
Just have to jump in here and share. I am so glad my husband didn’t worry so much about marrying a member. He had assumed he would and then in college, he met me. I, on the other hand, had been praying about my future husband since I had a decision to make about a young man from high school days of my same religion. We knew within 2 weeks that we would be married although it took some time before it was shared with each other. He went into it knowing I wouldn’t be joining the LDS church unless and until I felt I had received confirmation from the Lord. I trusted in my ability to discern answers from the Lord from my previous experiences in life. We have had a very successful marriage….I did join the church after a little time, after I had studied and prayed and felt I received my answer. Our grown children all dated nonmembers and married them. One joined the church before and the others after. We love them all and would have loved them no matter what their decision was. They all loved the Lord. I have friends in mixed faith marriages that have very happy, successful marriages also. I have some friends with temple marriages that are absolutely miserable. I have friends who have been betrayed by their RM, Eagle Scout, married in the temple husbands and ended up single mothers.
My husband and I have always been equal in our marriage. I couldn’t have done marriage any other way.His father was a great example to him of respecting his wife. Our son in laws follow in the same path.
I hope hearing this perspective will be helpful to you in some way.
I don’t know how to put this but I practically got … the other night. The only reason it didn’t happen is that I didn’t have enough to buy her a drink and it was closing time. Practically an open door… But it did get me thinking… does this make me a hypocrite? What would have happened if I did have a one night stand? Would I tell the church? One of these scenarios where I would feel regret either way, albeit of a slightly different nature. I’m in much the same situation that you are. I’m a single college guy who is having the in-vogue doctrinal/historical crisis of faith. Much of the material designed to help people having a crisis of faith makes the assumption that the questioner is already married; very little has been written about the experience of being a single doubting returned missionary. A crisis of faith is probably less complicated for a single person than for a married person, but there are some tough questions that single people have to answer that married people don’t, such as these: If I leave the church, how will I make friends? How will I meet girls? What kind of girl will I marry? Will she be a disaffected Mormon like me, or a Protestant, or a lapsed Catholic, or what? Am I going to go to bars and clubs to meet women? Am I willing to cohabit with a girlfriend? These are tough questions that single people having a crisis of faith have to answer, and I’m still trying to answer them for myself. Continuing to pursue orthodox LDS girls seems problematic. What good LDS girl who’s dreamed of marrying her Nephi in the temple is going to want to marry a guy who seriously doubts the authenticity of the Book of Abraham and the historicity of the Book of Mormon? No one that I know. And though websites like LDSSingles.com do exist, I’m not aware of any ex-mormon dating sites with names like “PostLDSSingles.com” where disaffected Mormon men can meet disenchanted Mormon women and live happy semi-Mormon lives together.
In his book “Fire in the Belly: On Being a Man” (which was part of the mythopoetic men’s movement,) author Sam Keen gives this profound insight: “There are two questions of manhood: Where I am going, and who will go with me? If you ever get those questions in the wrong order, you are in trouble.” It seems true that people like you and I are unmarriageable until we decide what we believe about the Church. Like I said, what Mormon girl wants a guy who doesn’t believe that the Church is what it claims to be? And what non-LDS girls wants a man who can’t make up his mind about the religion he grew up with? So it seems true that people like you and I will have to make up our minds about the Church and our activity in it before we are in a position to get married. That doesn’t mean that we can’t or shouldn’t date, but if things get serious with someone (which can happen really fast, because hey, we’re Mormons, right?) then we’d have to explain our doubts and questions to our now-serious girlfriend, which is embarrassing to even think about. But then again, she may express the same concerns, and we could get married and go inactive together. Wow, that actually might work out nicely. But I’m not counting on it.
Additionally, if you (or I) did find that pretty LDS girl who gave us a reason to stay in the Church, that won’t make the problems with LDS Church history and doctrine go away. A hot girl can’t alter the clear connection between Masonry and the LDS temple ceremony. And though I’ve never been married, it seems clear to me that getting married doesn’t change historical facts about the Church, no matter how awesome the girl you’re marrying.
Also, I’ve never really tried to pursue a non-LDS girl, so I’m not really sure how to go about it.
Anyway, I’m in the same position as you. It’s a tough spot, and I’m still trying to figure things out.
InquiringMind wrote:And though websites like LDSSingles.com do exist, I’m not aware of any ex-mormon dating sites with names like “PostLDSSingles.com” where disaffected Mormon men can meet disenchanted Mormon women and live happy semi-Mormon lives together.
Hmmm. Maybe there’s a market for this. I should see if the URL is still available and starting coding the website. Haha. But yeah, you summed up the issue pretty well. I pretty much only know Mormon dating culture too. Well, really only BYU-I dating culture which is a thing unto itself. I’m kind of torn on it – I’m pretty optimistic about finding a place for myself within the church despite my intellectual issues, but when it comes time to renew my temple recommend I’m not sure I will. I simply cannot answer all the belief questions and my integrity is too important to me. It’s a complicated situation. I totally agree with your quote though; I need to figure out where I’m going first before deciding who should go with me.Quote:I simply cannot answer all the belief questions and my integrity is too important to me.
That’s where I am. My recommend comes up for renewal in September, and while I can answer all the behavioral questions well enough, I can’t sit there and tell someone that I have a testimony that Joseph Smith restored the One True Church (question #3). In fact, I don’t think I can affirmatively answer any of the first four questions. I’m trying to see if I can reconstruct a faith, but if the Church isn’t what it claims to be, then do temple ordinances really have the power to create an eternal marriage anyway? If the Church isn’t what it claims to be, then getting married in the temple is exactly the same as getting married on a beach in Southern California.
I’m really weighing the value of staying in a Church whose core claims are highly questionable with whatever options are “out there” in a world that I haven’t explored very much. Even as a “New Order Mormon” (one who identifies socially and culturally with the Church but who doesn’t believe some or many of the Church’s claims) I’d be second-class citizen in Mormonism. I’d be embarrassed to state my lack of belief when asked to bear testimony at FHE and it would make the situation super awkward. And it seems that the only realistic avenue for marriage in the Church would be to a girl who is a also a “New Order Mormon.” My suspicion is that single New Order Mormon girls are rare in the Church because women don’t seem to be bothered by doctrinal and historical problems the way that men are and most girls have never felt the need to ask the tough doctrinal and historical questions.
My luck with Mormon girls has been kinda spotty, and I just don’t seem to be the man that they’ve been dreaming of their whole lives, even after substantial efforts to improve myself and having what I think is a pretty interesting life. On the other hand, I’ve had a couple of quite attractive non-LDS girls be quite forward about their interest in me. I rejected them because they weren’t LDS, but I’m questioning that decision. Those specific opportunities are gone now, but there would be others.
I admit that I’m kinda scared to try dating non-LDS girls. I don’t know what they want or what their expectations are. But I clearly don’t know what Mormon girls want either, because I’m not married. So I’m working through all this stuff.
InquiringMind wrote:I’m trying to see if I can reconstruct a faith, but if the Church isn’t what it claims to be, then do temple ordinances really have the power to create an eternal marriage anyway?
I’m not sure they do. Of course, I also thought the idea that being dunked in water could make or break someone’s chances of getting into heaven was completely ridiculous long before I had my faith crisis. I personally don’t see a whole lot of value in getting a temple marriage over a civil marriage right now other than to meet the expectations of family members.
InquiringMind wrote:My suspicion is that single New Order Mormon girls are rare in the Church
I’m not sure this is true. As I’ve been on the message boards and listening to podcasts, it seems like there is a pretty good number of female voices in the disaffected Mormon community. The trouble is finding them….InquiringMind wrote:I admit that I’m kinda scared to try dating non-LDS girls. I don’t know what they want or what their expectations are.
Same here. I still plan on saving myself for marriage, but I’m not sure how many girls outside of the church would be ok with that.
InquiringMind wrote:… most girls have never felt the need to ask the tough doctrinal and historical questions.
We need the popcorn-eating emoticon. Could have used it here.
InquiringMind wrote:A hot girl can’t alter the clear connection between Masonry and the LDS temple ceremony.
Are you certain about that?IM, you make a lot of good points, and I really feel for you guys having to address these issues. I can’t help wondering if people in other faiths go through this sort of thing. For a multitude of reasons, my guess is no, or at least not so much.
Quote:I can’t help wondering if people in other faiths go through this sort of thing.
Absolutely. This isn’t close to being a Mormon phenomenon.
Quote:As I’ve been on the message boards and listening to podcasts, it seems like there is a pretty good number of female voices in the disaffected Mormon community. The trouble is finding them….
There are probably quite a few, and I may have unknowingly met several of them. But they don’t advertise their status for the same reason that I don’t: in a Stage 3 religious culture, making it publicly known that your testimony in the core claims of the Church is anything other than unshakable is social suicide. So there would have to be a gathering place for such individuals; otherwise, I could meet a New Order Mormon girl and neither of us would know of our shared disenchantment with the Church because we’d both still be pretending to be TBMs in order to be socially acceptable.
Quote:We need the popcorn-eating emoticon.
It appears that this means that we need to wait and see what happens on this issue, but I’m not sure.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:I can’t help wondering if people in other faiths go through this sort of thing.
Absolutely. This isn’t close to being a Mormon phenomenon.
Well, perhaps you’re right, Ray, but in my limited experience we seem pretty unique in this regard. At least among Christian faiths. I can’t imagine my Methodist friends dealing with these kinds of issues.InquiringMind wrote:
Quote:We need the popcorn-eating emoticon.
It appears that this means that we need to wait and see what happens on this issue, but I’m not sure.
That’s actually more constructive and to the point than what I was thinking when I wrote that, which was “Hmmm. I wonder if the women on the site are going to let that comment slide, or tear into this guy. I wish I had some popcorn to munch on while I wait and see.” But it seems I needn’t have worried. And I think I know what you meant, by the way, but doubt I would have been bold enough to say it quite that way. I’m basically a chicken.doug, it all depends on the depth and exclusivity of one’s belief structure. I think deeply believing Southern Baptist and non-practicing Southern Baptist – or Hassidic / Orthodox Jew and secular Jew – or “women don’t speak in church” Assembly of God and progressive Assembly of God – or traditional Amish and modern Amish – or something similar would be a better comparison.
I actually do know people from my days in MA and AL who struggled with the exact same thing.
My personal experience here is that it isn’t unique. But in most religions I have encountered with practicing people. It wouldn’t be social suicide. Most people outside of mormonism and orthodox Jews aren’t extremist in forcing each other to believe and tow the line. Many Mormons aren’t extremist either. But among the TBM in California and Utah seem to be as far as being told what to believe and the belief that the prophets are always right and e erupting hey say is true. But other areas in the USA and around the world don’t seem to take such a hard line in my experience. Or at least the concentration of having to believe everything type of people is lower. In my experience the TBM in Utah and California behaved exatly like Ultra Orthdox Jews in New York. But in the south and Midwest or even some places in the east coast not so much. People keep their individual believes to themselves if they questioned and were questioned or mucked for questioning. but they are all over. Among my various Christian friends they all have different beliefs and express them regularly. They don’t question each other as to their different beliefs. They just disagree but respect them. Many are open to hearing other beliefs without being offended.
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