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Today’s GD lesson was on David and Bathsheba. I am usually very bored in GD (some of that is due to poor teaching ability, some due to what I find interesting) but today’s lesson was pretty good. More about making decisions and making lots of poor decisions can lead to making larger bad decisions later. A pretty universal concept whatever your stripes. Of course the doctrine that David has lost his opportunity for exaltation came up. I know I have been taught that my entire life, and even with my more universalist, big-tent view on things, I am not sure how I feel about that idea. As in that might not be a true doctrine, but what he did was definitely not good and I don’t condone it. I know if you actually dig into the history of David (not just what the Bible says) he was not a perfect person and did a fair amount of other sketchy things (foreskins for a wedding gift wasn’t worse than killing Uriah?).
So any thoughts on this topic? How was everybody else’s lesson this today?
This is an interesting subjection. Our Gospel Doctrine class covered that lesson sometime last year. And member of the bishopric who’s an older man and a more traditional member of the church than I am said we don’t know all the details of David having Uriah killed. Only the Lord knows. David might have been able to fully repent and the Lord might have forgiven him. He might have exaltation. I think it’s interesting that a more traditional member of my ward in the bishopric said this. We did it recently. A comparison with Potiphar’s wife came up. Some of the stuff mentioned:
* Bathsheba did not lead David on.
* Potiphar’s wife attacked Joseph.
* Bathsheba was unclean at the time (according to Mosaic law, making it another sin)
* David was already away from his army when he saw Bathsheba. In his youth he would have led attacks.
* David went through a complex scheme to do away with Uriah, which made it even worse.
* David had many wives already.
By the way, I wouldn’t show the Richard Gere film to LDS, parts of it are quite raunchy.
I was wondering about this myself. Where did people get the idea that David has lost his exaltation? Psalms 16:10 and Psalms 86:13 say that David would not be left in hell and then that he was saved from “the lowest hell”. For someone who doesn’t ascribe inerrancy to scripture, that’s not necessarily authoritative, but it should give the most orthodox Christians pause in consigning David to Hell.
A few folk in the scriptures have been heroes who went awry: * Adam and Eve. Lied to God after sinning unknowingly.
* Noah. Went and planted a vineyard, did something disgusting after.
* Moses. Murderer.
* Saul. It’s often forgotten he was originally a good guy.
* Solomon. Said to have got mixed up in occult.
* Peter. Betrayed Jesus by denying him.
* Thomas. Doubter.
* Judas. No mention of him doing anything wrong until he sold out Jesus.
Daeruin wrote:I was wondering about this myself. Where did people get the idea that David has lost his exaltation?
I don’t know of the origins, meaning there must have been a notion of this before it was written down in scripture but:
D&C 132:39
Quote:David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and,
therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord. The Bible dictionary under “David” also mentions this but it appears to be entirely based on D&C 132:39, that’s to say that if it wasn’t for D&C 132 I don’t believe that they would have come to this conclusion.
Quote:Like Saul he was guilty of grave crimes; but unlike Saul, he was capable of true contrition and was therefore able to find forgiveness, except in the murder of Uriah. As a consequence David is still unforgiven, but he received a promise that the Lord would not leave his soul in hell. He will be resurrected at the end of the Millennium. Because of his transgressions, he has fallen from his exaltation (D&C 132:39).
I haven’t studied it out in a while so I’m sure there are gaps in my memory but I find it hard to believe that David has permanently lost his exaltation. If he has fallen from his exaltation many, many other people have as well. A few points:
The lord could have strengthened Uriah in battle to foil David’s plans. Uriah could then come back to be a witness against David. This outcome doesn’t stray very far from what the lord was doing for other people at the time.
- Interesting they bring up Saul. He’s kind of hard to ignore when talking about David. How many times did David escape Saul’s assassination attempts? Murder was in Saul’s heart but as far as I know there’s no edict that Saul is to never receive exaltation. The only difference is that Uriah died and David did not, but the intent was the same.
- It limits the power of the atonement.
I think the doctrine of David never being able to receive exaltation is one that was created to instill fear. Yes, what he did was very bad and you want to send a clear message that his behavior was unacceptable. What better way to do that than to make people fear that if they do anything similar they are forever damned.
I think it’s also dangerous to limit the atonement like that. Over-punishment (you’re damned and there’s nothing you can do about it) creates its own set of problems. In some ways taking away everything doesn’t limit, it liberates, it creates a “nothing to lose” scenario. Welp, I’m damned so I guess I can just do what I want to now.
It also opens up a can of worms. If David can never be exalted we’ve got to assume that there are several other people in different situations that similarly can never be exalted. Rather than play that game I’d rather stick to the notion that any sin can be repented of, otherwise what’s the point?
The D & C is the best reference. I have also heard Acts 2:29 used Quote:Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.
The idea is that if David had merited the morning of the first resurrection then he would have been resurrected with Jesus and David’s tomb would have been empty by the time acts was written.
Pretty sketchy IMO.
I completely reject the notion that David has completely lost his exaltation – especially for killing Uriah. This isn’t what D&C 132 says according to my reading (the murder bit) and seems to have crept in based on verses of D&C 42. This notion just doesn’t fit with scriptures and prophetic statements (if you accept them as such) to the contrary. Of course, you also have to consider that D&C 132 has a curious history… not having been added to the D&C until 1876, if I recall correctly, that timing coinciding with the removal of another section which denounced polygamy. David, I believe, was included in the list of ancient polygamists to draw the clear line of sin – that being the taking of a woman which God did not give. David’s sin was clearly called out in the OT so it had to be explained away in a manner that allowed for polygyny (and all the accompanying odd practices like polyandry and marrying of young girls without the consent of the first wife) in the early church. This section seems to give men license to take concubines as well, though we never discuss that side of things…
Quote:David and Bathsheba
The story of David’s relationship with Bathsheba (II Samuel Chap. 11) is one of the most misread stories in the Bible, and we have to be careful in reading it as if it were some kind of soap opera. In summary, however, this is what happens.
Restless one night, David is pacing the roof of his palace from where he has a view of the homes and gardens in the city below(3). And there he spies a beautiful woman bathing. She is the wife of one of his generals, Uriah, the Hittite, who is away at war.
David sends for Bathsheba and spends the night with her. When she becomes pregnant, he commands that Uriah be placed on the front lines, where he dies in battle. David then marries Bathsheba.
At this point, the prophet Nathan is sent by God to reprove David. (See 2 Samuel 12.) He says that he has come to inform the king of a great injustice in the land. A rich man with many sheep, stole the one beloved sheep of a poor man, and had it slaughtered for a feast.
Furious at what he hears, King David, declares, “As God lives, the one who has done this deserves death.”
Responds the prophet, “You are that man!”
David is humbled. “I have sinned before God,” he says.
This is an enormously complex story and there is much more here than meets the eye. Technically, Bathsheba was not a married woman since David’s troops always gave their wives conditional divorces, lest a soldier be missing in action leaving his wife unable to remarry.(4) However, the Bible states clearly that David acted improperly, and the Sages explain that while David did not commit adultery in the literal sense, he violated the spirit of the law(5).
As noted in earlier installments, the Bible takes a hyper-critical position of Jewish leaders. It never whitewashes anyone’s past, and in that it stands alone among the records of ancient peoples which usually describe kings as descendants of gods without faults.
David’s greatness shines in both his ability to take responsibility for his actions and the humility of his admission and the repentance that follows. This is part of the reason that the ultimate redeemer of the Jewish people and the world will descend from David’s line ― he will be “Messiah son of David.”
Shortly thereafter, Bathsheba gives birth, but the child becomes deathly ill as the prophet Nathan had predicted. David goes into a period of prayer and fasting, but the child dies nevertheless. David realizes that the death of the baby and later the revolt of his beloved son, Absalom (II Samuel 15-19), were divine punishment and also served as atonement for his actions. David “pays his dues,” repents for many years and is ultimately forgiven by God.
Before long Bathsheba is pregnant again. And this time, she bears a healthy child ― who is named Solomon, and who will be the golden child, gifted with unusual wisdom.
4) Talmud, Shabbat 56b
5) See Talmud, Sanhedrin 107b. As a prophet, David saw that Bathsheba was destined for him. (Solomon’s birth and kingship are proof of this point). The issue was not that Bathsheba was meant to be his wife, but rather how he acquired her.
Forgotten_Charity wrote:5) See Talmud, Sanhedrin 107b. As a prophet, David saw that Bathsheba was destined for him. (Solomon’s birth and kingship are proof of this point). The issue was not that Bathsheba was meant to be his wife, but rather how he acquired her.
Interesting footnote. JS also foresaw that certain individuals were “destined for him” to be plural wives.
Roy wrote:Forgotten_Charity wrote:5) See Talmud, Sanhedrin 107b. As a prophet, David saw that Bathsheba was destined for him. (Solomon’s birth and kingship are proof of this point). The issue was not that Bathsheba was meant to be his wife, but rather how he acquired her.
Interesting footnote. JS also foresaw that certain individuals were “destined for him” to be plural wives.
Which is why I posted it. Similarities are striking, which is why I would never claim that David couldn’t gain it ever. I would have to then by the very same level of thinking put Joseph smith in the same boat. If he isn’t then your founding project sure isn’t as he can’t possibly be described as sinning less then David.In incomprehensible notion that one could and the other not. Unsettling to make that claim. On light of what the records show for each. Hope, valor, justice and mercy demand that I can’t declare such of either. Bit if I do I must create them equal, so I don’t.
As I said before, David also committed a big no no in orthodox Judaism – often overlooked by Christians. Bathsheba was bathing due to her menstrual cycle, and ritually unclean as a result.
Interesting that she was an ancestor of both Solomon and Jesus – although how Jesus is descended from either when his father is supposed to be God, and Matthew and Luke give contradictory genealogies…
SamBee wrote:As I said before, David also committed a big no no in orthodox Judaism – often overlooked by Christians.
Bathsheba was bathing due to her menstrual cycle, and ritually unclean as a result.
Interesting that she was an ancestor of both Solomon and Jesus – although how Jesus is descended from either when his father is supposed to be God, and Matthew and Luke give contradictory genealogies…
Well I read the story of David very differently then most. To me it seems he was almost plotting since his childhood his position which he seems to feel was his right since birth so maneuvered his plots since birth Witt the belief it was justified because he had the belief he was chosen. Similar to king James. Who also grew up being taught and believing he was chosen by god since birth. So I don’t see this as a different version of David but the sane plotting David that was there since birth.
Be that as it may, I can’t see any way how what is described in the Torah and oral Torah is more of a sin, sinful then other some other prophets including JS. I find it very weird and hypocritical that one could cast a stone at one and not the other.
Both have done tremendous good and equally bad sins. So how to cast a dim light on either without the other one? Again in that context I wouldn’t want to say there final place in the universe. I can’t see at all how one could say exhalation for one but not the other or visa versa since the level of serious sins is at least equal. And similarities striking.
Thanks! Very interesting perspectives. I also think about the stories from the Book of Mormon, especially the Lamanites who had committed murder were able to repent of their sins. Now perhaps they were not under as much condemnation as David because they sinned in “ignorance”. In our class on Sunday someone brought up the point that we should have some sympathy for David. He was in a position of power and as with many people in those position you end up being surrounded by people who use you for your power and access, who never say “no” to anything you suggest, who create an alternate reality that tugs at your weaknesses and un-moors you from your moral compass. What would we do in a similar position of power?
I thought was another good way to look at it.
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