Dealing with stagnation

[Anonymous]

This is a continuation of a thought I had in the Just feeling so alone. thread.

1) Someone you know appears to be stuck on the same issue. Conversations with this person always seem gravitate back to the same talking points. It could be anything from “Let me tell you one more thing about Joseph Smith…” to “You know what else is cool about mountain bikes…”

a) You want to see your friend move on, make progress, let go of an issue, or whatever. It’s hard to watch someone suffer over the same issue for years and years.

b) This may be entirely selfish but you begin to grow weary with the discussion. You already know all the talking points and you want to move the conversation away from the same old, same old for the sake of your own personal edification. If you can’t do this you may find yourself wanting to avoid the person in order to avoid the conversation.

I’ve got to think that some former or current bishops can really relate to this one. You see someone that can’t quite get over that hump for whatever reason so the suffering plays on loop over the course of a lifetime. I suppose there’s nothing you can do but to listen again and wait for the friend to come around.

2) This is an extension of 1b. Reread 1b but put things in the context of church lessons. You already know the talking points, same old same old, etc.

Oh, a tithing lesson. Cue the windows of heaven, cue the one tenth, cue the testimony on miraculous paying of a bill, maybe a “fire insurance” reference if you’ve been a good boy. If you’re not careful you may find yourself in the position of wanting to avoid the class. Many times I find that there’s still potential for learning if I’m humble enough to receive it, other times I feel like I’m stagnating by listening to the same things over, and over, and over again.

Full disclosure. I don’t have anyone in mind in creating this thread. I know that I have played and continue to play the part of the friend that’s stuck on my issues. It’s just that more often than not I’m blind to them and when I’m not blind to them I’m seemingly powerless to do anything about it. Dog will hunt. That’s probably one of the reasons I struggle to help people out in their situations, I don’t even know how to help myself most of the time.

[Anonymous]

I have a suggestion about how to handle this kind of situation. The reason I know this is because I have been an obsessor in previous relationships with friends — regarding conversation topics. Once, when an engagement of mine fell through, and currently with a friend who is TBM and confessed he finds my church attitudes wearing. Both relationships remained intact…here is a possible formula based on these experiences.

1. You have to create a sense of loyalty, friendship, and undying commitment to the other person. They need to know, as the scriptures say, your friendship is stronger than the bonds of death — to use hyperbole. This means making regular investments in the relationship. If you have that in place, you can go to step 2. Only when they know you are dedicated to them for the long term can you enforce standards firmly — firm enough that in weaker relationships, it could destroy the relationship.

2. Set limits on those aspects of the conversation. I had one person who was my friend through the aftermath of an engagement that went very poorly. She eventually said “I’m taking you out to lunch at the mall, but you have to agree to spend no more than 10 minutes on how you are feeling about the engagement”. And she held me to it. Every time I mentioned it, she reminded me of the boundary, and changed the subject. After a while, I knew that conversation was a dead end.

At one point, relating to another issue, we both drew on our knowledge of psychology and operant conditioning to modify my tendency to return to the same topics over and over again. We both had degrees in psychology, so we understood the mechanics, and this worked — it would probably not work in other contexts, but the relationship was such that it worked. Every time I reverted to the taboo topic outside of the limits, I owed her a dollar. This was back in 1990. 15 dollars later I finally got the message. I actually paid her — she insisted on it — and I gave her the money. She never gave it back. I think the amount was even greater that $15 but I don’t want to exaggerate.

Regarding church stagnation. That’s hard. Hearing the same thing over and over again….there are a few things you can do, but I find they don’t work forever:

a) Come prepared with little known facts about the lesson, and share them. I still remember, with fondness how I was able to hijack lessons and steal the show by quoting from Jesus the Christ and other mainstream LDS works most people in my Ward hadn’t read.

b) Rock the boat, without sinking the ship. Have fun sharing unorthodox ideas that are not SO unorthodox you get “kicked out” or called out by leaders patrolling for false doctrine.

c) Bring your kindle and read something of interest. I now read Rough Stone Rolling in certain meetings.

However, there are times I just don’t bother to go to a meeting that is boring. I found an empty room off the stage in the cultural hall and prepared for classes, did clerical work, and most of all, read topics I find interesting in silence. I feel a bit like Ben Franklin doing that, as he found religion to be unfulfilling. Instead, he dedicated his Sundays to educating himself.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your valuable input SD. I didn’t know you had a degree in psychology. Cool.

#2 can be hard. Maybe I feel that way because I’ve been shaken when people have set limits on me in the past. In all honesty I can’t say that it affected my relationship with the person one way or the other, certainly not long term. It makes me wonder why I’m so reluctant to do that with other people.

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

Thanks for your valuable input SD. I didn’t know you had a degree in psychology. Cool.

#2 can be hard. Maybe I feel that way because I’ve been shaken when people have set limits on me in the past. In all honesty I can’t say that it affected my relationship with the person one way or the other, certainly not long term. It makes me wonder why I’m so reluctant to do that with other people.

For me, relationships are fragile. I have one relationship outside of biological family that has lasted more that 20 years. The others degenerate. And withdrawals like setting boudnaries hurt the relationship as far as I am concerned — when I disagree with the boundary. It tends to bother me and I stop desiring a relationship of any kind with the person. I think the scripture in the D&C regarding “reproving betimes with sharpness, showing an increase in love” speaks to the fragility of relationships. You sound like you have thick skin. I admire that in you.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

You sound like you have thick skin. I enjoy you.

Thanks for the kind words. You make me blush.

[Anonymous]

Good post. Good ideas and questions.

I know what you mean by this point…

nibbler wrote:

This may be entirely selfish but you begin to grow weary with the discussion. You already know all the talking points and you want to move the conversation away from the same old, same old for the sake of your own personal edification.

I guess I do 2 things:

1) I remember, like when we go to the temple and hear the same things over and over, what can I learn from it this time, or if I’m changing then what is my take on it from where I’m standing now? That helps me try to keep it fresh, even if it does seem old to me.

2) Focus on what the other person is saying…what their responses are…was I similar or different in my take when it was new to me? A lot of times what I hear them saying is about them and their faith and how it impacts them. Regardless of where I’m at…I’m interested in hearing what others think about it, and I ask more questions than really provide my ideas. That personally edifies me.

Quote:

D&C 50:22 Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.

I like SD’s comments on the connection and the relationship.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

b) This may be entirely selfish but you begin to grow weary with the discussion. You already know all the talking points and you want to move the conversation away from the same old, same old for the sake of your own personal edification. If you can’t do this you may find yourself wanting to avoid the person in order to avoid the conversation.

The accusation of selfishness is over-used in my view. I have been in relationships where I haven’t wanted to do something. People then label you “selfish” to get you to do it. No one wants to be labelled selfish, particularly in religious circles given the example of Christ’s sacrifice of his life.

You can level the selfishness accusation against any reluctant behavior. Selfishness is in the eye of the beholder — and that beholder, when it comes to my own behavior, is myself — particularly when I think people are trying to simply manipulate me into doing something I don’t want to do with a pejorative label. There is also the “you are a dictator” argument when you are in a position of power, and after listening to all sides, make a decision that is not popular. No one likes to be called a dictator, but at times, it’s right and appropriate to make an unpopular decision, particularly when you are accountable for the resources/results.

Therefore, I don’t think it’s selfish to be bored and unwilling to listen to the same thing over and over again. As the management theorist Herzberg said, apathy and indifference is a healthy reaction to boring work.

The onus,in my view, is on the church to find ways of meeting the interests of all people in repetitive activities like church meetings. The approach is to put the onus right back on the bored person to listen, to be there for others, to learn as much as they can from it, etcetera. I wonder how many people we are losing due to outright boredom at church? I can name two people 1) my son and 2) myself on many days.

[Anonymous]

The thread Moderation and Me is suddenly coming back to the forefront of my mind.

I guess having patience with people that are discovering issues can wear on us as well. The faces might change but the talking points are often the same. Still I think there’s a bit of difference between helping 100 people transition past the same problem and helping one person with the same problem 100 times… or is there? On the one hand you have the fruit of your labors, the 100 people that are past a problem. On the other you want to see that one person finally overcome the problem they’ve been struggling with for a while. When they finally make it the fruit is all the sweeter.

Crazy busy day today so I can’t say much.

Thanks SD for your comments.

[Author]

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