Death

[Anonymous]

LookingHard, yup I’m going to have to watch some Simpsons to lift my spirits. I agree with your stance about not poking holes. My approach has been to remind people of the faith that they hold when placed in a position to offer comfort.

mom3, I’m not a big reader (at all) but I’ll have to put Tuesdays With Morrie on the list. Also, thanks for sharing the personal experience you had with your neighbor. I find those kinds of stories very interesting and I’ve found that they often fall into the “too sacred to share” territory – which I completely understand BTW. I don’t often get to hear things like that, I appreciate it.

Roadrunner wrote:

Perhaps counter-intuitively I fear death less after my faith crisis. I also experience much less guilt. For me, realizing there probably isn’t a hellish or glorious afterlife makes me worry less about whether I’m doing something well enough, or whether it’s acceptable to God, etc. There’s no “after” so I better enjoy the “now.”

That said, I encounter moments of profound sadness when I remember I won’t see my wife or kids again and for those periods of time this life seems hollow and meaningless. I wonder if as I approach death whether the belief of no afterlife will bother me.

I think that describes almost exactly where I’m at. For me those moments of profound sadness can come about because suffering that is outside of our control can feel like just that, pointless suffering. A waste. I take a little comfort in knowing that “this too shall pass” (usually) and that the suffering isn’t in vain because it can prepare me for the next bought.

Ray, I appear to be a fretter but I’ll try not to fret about it. Well, maybe on a guitar.

Roy, yeah I guess either way we’ll end up being together. If not in body, in experiences shared.

Holy Cow, a crutch isn’t bad if you need it. I like it, easy to remember and conveys an important point. Brigham & Co… I don’t know if I want to spend that much time standing in the line of people that want to see him. :angel:

On Own Now, your views mirror my own. I can agree with everything you said. I’m just trying to get over that hump where I’m okay with it… which is kind of pointless because it is what it is. It’s not like not getting over it is going to change the outcome.

Ann, sorry about your diagnosis. I do like how empowered you are about your beliefs.

Heber13, thanks for the Elder Oaks quote. I remember that talk but had forgotten about it.

SilentDawning, I agree, we’d likely have to be actively engaged in the afterlife otherwise we would have spiritual atrophy. I guess that’s another point I’d need to reconcile. If god is largely hands off with our mortal experience what is he busy doing?

I’m note sure how I feel about NDEs. I find them interesting and I certainly don’t mean to challenge someone’s experience but I’ve got this thought that tends to surface. People often cite how NDEs shouldn’t be ignored because they are so similar across cultural and faith boundaries… but you could say that about UFO sightings. 😥 I don’t mean to tear at faith in NDEs, I’m just being honest about where I’m at.

Thanks for your comments everyone. Every one has helped!

[Anonymous]

So interesting to me that you posted this now, Nibbler. I’ve been all over the map with what I believe about an afterlife, especially since my father passed a few months ago (http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6112). As others have said, those experiences force you to contemplate death more. On top of that, I’m having a complicated surgery next week, so I’m contemplating my own mortality as well.

Lately, I’ve been feeling more and more that there is an afterlife, not like what the church teaches, but …something. When I was leaning toward atheism, the idea of no afterlife never sat right with me. At first, I thought is was just that the teachings I grew up with were too ingrained. Now that I believe in (hope for) an afterlife, I’m much more at peace about it. It just feels right to me. I can’t explain it because it makes no logical sense.

So, I had a strange experience today. Yesterday, I attended a pre-surgery class at the hospital to prepare for what to expect before, during and after surgery. While there, the nurse conducting the class gave us a CD to listen to, to help lessen anxiety and promote calmness and healing. Its baiscally a deep breeathing/ meditation/ visualization exercise. She told us to listen to it at least 2x’s/day until surgery. I like that kind of thing and believe it works, so I put the CD in a laid down my bed. My experience was not at all what I expected, or what they’re going for, I’m sure. I did relax, but that meant I let my guard down and feelings I’ve been repressing about my grief, and thoughts about the possibility of my own death, came out.

I began sobbing and DH came running to see what was wrong. I explained what happened, and we had a long talk. In the course of that, I told him that I’ve realized I’m not afraid of death at all. I’m really not. I just don’t want him and our sons (and other family members, like my mom) to go through the kind of pain I’ve been feeling since losing my dad. Even though it’s getting VERY SLIGHTY easier with time, it’s still so hard sometimes, and I miss him so much.

I know death is something ALL of us have to confront at some time or other, and even with believing in life after death, it’s still pretty damned hard. DH assured me that even if the absoute worst happens, he and the boys and their SO’s will all get through it together. He also promised to take care of Mom for me.

I’m not expecting to die. I’m sure things will go just fine, but I just thought this post was interesting today of all days. Comforting and thought provoking.

[Anonymous]

Nibbler,

Tuesdays with Morrie was made into a movie. Like all movies some of the story gets condensed, but I think you would still get the lessons. Sometimes I will watch it when I don’t have time to read the book.

It stars Hank Azaria and Jack Lemmon.

[Anonymous]

I used to feel sorry for atheists. I thought “how dreadful death must be for them.” I remember my father telling me about a woman (a nonmember) he knew and her reaction when her husband passed away. She was inconsolable, according to him. This because she didn’t have any belief to hang on to. “Of course,” I thought. “How can you face the death of any loved one without some belief in an afterlife?” Well, many of them do and do just fine. Below is from Ann Druyan, the wife of the late Carl Sagan (both are/were atheists).

Quote:

“When my husband died, because he was so famous & known for not being a believer, many people would come up to me — it still sometimes happens — & ask me if Carl changed at the end & converted to a belief in an afterlife. They also frequently ask me if I think I will see him again. Carl faced his death with unflagging courage & never sought refuge in illusions. The tragedy was that we knew we would never see each other again. I don’t ever expect to be reunited with Carl. But, the great thing is that when we were together, for nearly twenty years, we lived with a vivid appreciation of how brief & precious life is. We never trivialized the meaning of death by pretending it was anything other than a final parting. Every single moment that we were alive & we were together was miraculous — not miraculous in the sense of inexplicable or supernatural. We knew we were beneficiaries of chance… That pure chance could be so generous & so kind… That we could find each other, as Carl wrote so beautifully in Cosmos, you know, in the vastness of space & the immensity of time… That we could be together for twenty years. That is something which sustains me & it’s much more meaningful…

The way he treated me & the way I treated him, the way we took care of each other & our family, while he lived. That is so much more important than the idea I will see him someday. I don’t think I’ll ever see Carl again. But I saw him. We saw each other. We found each other in the cosmos, and that was wonderful.“

I’m not sure about an afterlife personally. Some of the stories related here are reasons I have a hard time letting go of the concept. And yet, the vague descriptions the Church provides about the world hereafter aren’t enough. Things like “We’ll be very busy in the next life.” What? I’m busy right now. I don’t want an Eternity of meetings or rushing about! “We’ll be reunited with our family and ancestors.” Uh, thanks, but some of my family I didn’t care for and have little connection too. “We will wait for the resurrection.” And do what while we wait? Mill about in white?

I’m not trying to dismiss these things but simply say that they aren’t satisfying. And more and more, I feel I should focus on THIS life and make it as good as it can be and let the afterlife take care of itself.

[Anonymous]

I grew up in the Church with the teachings about a afterlife. Somehow through my FC, that belief was little affected. Both of my parents died during my mid 20’s and I found the coming together as family and friends quite comforting. Even more comforting for me were the funerals. One of my most favorite Mormon meetings are funerals. They are not like Irish wakes, but they are quietly comforting, positive and life affirming. I don’t pretend to have a certain knowledge of the afterlife, but particularly after reading Givens’ “The God Who Weeps”, I have replaced my lingering concerns with hope, belief and even faith.

Not to long ago I had open heart surgery to repair a very leaky mytral heart valve. Forty percent of the blood coming from the lungs was leaking back to the lungs. (This is while I was still jogging 6 miles a week before the operation.) The only other operation I ever had had some 60 years, my tonsillectomy, so hospitals and related stuff was pretty foreign to me. The doctors explained the operation would take 4-6 hours, would require them to stop both the heart and lungs and I would be on life support to replace those functions. (So technically I would be dead during that time). If all went well, they said I should come out of the anesthesia later that evening, but would largely still be relying on life support til my heart and lungs could resume their functions.

It all sounded very scary, but I had faith this was a necessary procedure, and that I was in competent hands. I had a priesthood blessing (but I don’t know whether it made much difference). I approached the whole thing as an adventure, experiencing an entirely new experience with every confidence I would come out the other end. I realized for the first time that I am mortal, and I wasn’t to worried if it had turned out to be fatal. If It did, I was looking forward to finding out what the afterlife was like, and fully expecting to find a benevolent God who would accept me as I am, and encourage me to correct any flaws so I could become the best soul I could be (sorry for being so saccharine)

Believing and having confidence in a benevolent afterlife is easy for me.

[Anonymous]

MockingJay wrote:

I did relax, but that meant I let my guard down and feelings I’ve been repressing about my grief, and thoughts about the possibility of my own death, came out.

…I know death is something ALL of us have to confront at some time or other, and even with believing in life after death, it’s still pretty damned hard.

Thanks for sharing, MJ. Very good thoughts. I’m sorry about your surgery and will keep you in my prayers. I bet it felt good to use the relaxation CD and get the pent up emotions out, in preparation for what will likely be more emotions leading up to the surgery.

It is hard. We can come to the reality of death for us all (though you’re facing surgery, I’m sure not yet for a while for you!!!), but it is still hard.

Gerald wrote:

I’m not sure about an afterlife personally. Some of the stories related here are reasons I have a hard time letting go of the concept. And yet, the vague descriptions the Church provides about the world hereafter aren’t enough.

First…great quote from the widow of Carl. What a great perspective. Some people in church can’t imagine not having our gospel “story” to cling to for hope and faith, because they don’t know what other “story” would replace it. They can’t imagine not having a “story”. But you make some great points that for some of us that have heard the LDS story our whole lives, it does seem a bit hollow when you really think about it. When you really think about it, we don’t know too much really. It seems like most just cling to a story enough they don’t worry much about it.

Then things happen in life, kids die before growing up and getting married and having families, some family falls away from the church, or death or divorce and remarriage happens, or any number of things. And much of the story we grew up with seems to end too soon, leaving us unfulfilled about what we really can expect.

Gerald wrote:

I’m not trying to dismiss these things but simply say that they aren’t satisfying. And more and more, I feel I should focus on THIS life and make it as good as it can be and left the afterlife take care of itself.

I think that is wise. Any story we believe in, should help us in the here and now be better people. That’s what it is all about.

[Anonymous]

I just watched both shows. I liked them and I do think they are something that people should watch and prepare for – either for themselves or their loved ones. I do think our modern medicine often has us feeling they have most everything figured out. But everyone succumbs to death.

Thanks for passing this on nibbler.

[Anonymous]

I worked for many years in the medical field, and some of those years were in an assisted living where we saw at least one death a month and sometimes as many as six. These were all elderly people I had grown to care for and love. I still remember very clearly, though, one staff meeting after a particularly well-loved older woman passed away. One of our supervisors stood in the front of the room and said something along the lines of since we had all worked in this part of the medical field, we have all leaned that there are much, much worse things in this life than death. It’s something that’s stuck with me, even through all my religious ups and downs.

I don’t know what’s on the other side. But I find that I view it the same way as I viewed canyoneering through a dark, water-filled canyon in Southern Utah. I didn’t know what was at the bottom. Sometimes, I didn’t know how deep the water was, and that scared me. But I pushed on with my friends. I looked over the edge, felt that little thrill of fear, and then I went over and down to the bottom. And it turned out OK in the end. For some reason, that is what death feels like for me. I look at that edge of life, and I feel that same thrill of fear. But I also feel certainty that there will be a bottom for me to land on or at least swim through to get to the end of the canyon, whatever it might be.

There are experiences I have had and been made aware of that have made me believe that there is something after life. I don’t believe, however, that it will be the same experience for all of us.

One thing that did come out as a result of my FC, though was the belief that we need to do more on focusing on bettering ourselves and the world and the people around us rather than focusing on attaining some reward after this life. Like Gerald, I believe it’s more important to focus on this life; it’s the only thing we all know for sure.

[Anonymous]

I appreciate this question being asked. I haven’t been on this board for many months, as my recent FC has left me feeling so empty and depressed. The main reason for this is the topic of death. I lost an almost full term baby not too many years ago, and I have never really looked at death the same way again. Giving birth to death was very traumatic for me. I have suffered PTSD, and sometimes still have vivid nightmares. I was not active in the church at the time when this happened, and it was during that time that I was coming to terms with my husband’s sex addiction. I was a mess! My parents, as well as his, came out to support us for the funeral, and I remember feeling like it was all my fault, and our parents blamed me because I was not active in the church. They slipped hints here and there about what JS said about babies and children who die. At that time, the last thing I wanted to hear about what JS, because of polygamy issues. I was angry, but after a few months of reading the book they wanted me to read, I decided that I had to accept polygamy happened, and problems with church history would eventually be answered. At that time, I would have done anything to see my baby again. I went to another Christian church for a while, but it did not hold the same promises that the LDS church did. This was the start to my going back to church. I shelved everything I studied. I was so hurt and missing my baby so much. I went years trying to hold on to that hope and build my faith. Deep down inside, I knew that I did not really know anything, but reasoned that if I hoped and wanted it bad enough, it would happen for me.

Here I am, years later. I’m a student, a mother of other beautiful children, with a repaired marriage, and financial stability. I’m feeling very confident in my career path, and my sense of self worth. Things have improved for us, except the fact that I just do not have peace with death still. My shelf collapsed. I still go to church, and very few people know of my struggles. I put on a brave face, but I still cry in private for my son. My husband has moved on. He does not share the fears or sadness that I do. It wears him down for me to talk about it, but to be fair, I have talked about it a lot. He is different than me. Although he is also having a FC, he is less worried about death than before. So I came to this board today and searched the words “fear” and “death” and I saw this post. I am mourning the uncertainty of what I used to embrace. I feel like he died all over again. The not knowing part of this is really hard for me. I do not know how to find peace with it like many of you have done. I do hug my children a lot more and try to do the best I can with the time I have with them. The one comfort I have was a personal experience that I had a few days before he died, so I believe that death is not the end. It just has never happened again. I feel left behind and worry that I am not going to ever see him again, and I can barely stand that thought. I’m not comfortable with uncertainty. I wish I could be more of a help in that, but I do appreciate the fact that someone else can understand a little about what I am going through. Nothing quite forces you to look at your own mortality than a death of a loved one.

Sorry if I sabotaged your post. Thank you for posting this topic. It has been really helpful in so many ways.

[Anonymous]

RiverSong14 – It is good to see your name again and hear your voice. Please know you are always welcome.

[Author]

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