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First I will start by saying I have seen this for a long time. I was at a RS planning meeting this week, and the sisters that attended the meeting are mostly young married 20 something’s. I and two others are the only middle aged and older woman there. The other middle aged woman has been divorced…and the older woman has had children fall away, and various other issues happen in her life. I noticed that during the discussion on what to plan the younger 20 something’s still hang onto the whole life is a fairy tale, they’ve been married in the temple, and all is good attitudes. Like they have rose colored glasses on…all the time. I had noticed this same attitude in a FHE group I used to attend. Those who hadn’t had the trials and tribulations, thought that living the gospel was all rainbows and butterflies. Those of us who have had to endure more were a bit more skeptical of it all, not so quick to judge and usually sat in quite solitude.
I am bringing this up because I now wonder if part of my disillusionment is due my trials. I think the trials I have been through have forced the rose colored glasses off and I have to wonder if having them off hasn’t given me a much better clarity to life. And I have think it is like Adam and Eve eating the fruit, sure it was nice in the garden of Eden but boring and not really living, and after the fruit life got to be harder but a whole lot more interesting and more enjoyable. I think that is how I feel now, I have seen the truth, I accept the truth, but don’t make me go back into that garden full of blissful ignorance. Because it comes off as delusions of grandeur, not rainbows and butterflies.
This all said, do you see this type of thing happening? And do any of us want to go back to that state? Could we go back?
Arwen wrote:First I will start by saying I have seen this for a long time…
the younger 20 something’s still hang onto the whole life is a fairy tale, they’ve been married in the temple, and all is good attitudes. Like they have rose colored glasses on…all the time…I had noticed this same attitude in a FHE group I used to attend. Those who hadn’t had the trials and tribulations, thought that living the gospel was all rainbows and butterflies. Those of us who have had to endure more were a bit more skeptical of it all, not so quick to judge and usually sat in quite solitude. I am bringing this up because
I now wonder if part of my disillusionment is due my trials. I think the trials I have been through have forced the rose colored glasses off and I have to wonder if having them off hasn’t given me a much better clarity to life…I have seen the truth, I accept the truth, but don’t make me go back into that garden full of blissful ignorance. Because it comes off as delusions of grandeur, not rainbows and butterflies…This all said, do you see this type of thing happening? And do any of us want to go back to that state? Could we go back? I think many active Church members really have lived a relatively sheltered existence almost like they live inside a protective bubble or real-life approximation of Plato’s cave. I don’t know if it is so much due to lack of trials in every case as much as simply the way they interpret their intentionally limited experiences and perspective and what everything means. For me, it wasn’t any extreme difficulties in life that led me to lose faith in the Church but almost the exact opposite because I started to see for myself that it was fairly easy and convenient to just disregard much of what the Church says and that when I did I usually felt better most of the time than I did when I was trying so hard to have faith in and do everything the Church recommends.
After I completely lost faith in the Church my TBM parents, brother, bishop, co-workers, neighbors, etc. that are mostly older than me started to remind me of children almost as if they had never fully grown up in some ways. When I hear some of the things they say I often think to myself, “It’s not that simple, what about this problem or counter-example?” but I usually don’t dare to say anything about it because I worry how they would react if they feel threatened by having their point-of-view challenged especially the way things are typically tied together in the Church as if they all depend on each other.
Quote:I think the trials I have been through have forced the rose colored glasses off and I have to wonder if having them off hasn’t given me a much better clarity to life.
I love that description – and I love the Garden of Eden analogy.
No, we can’t go back. Innocence and naivete can’t be restored once lost. However, it is possible to gain a different kind of peace and assurance that is every bit as “real” and “powerful” – and more so, for those for whom it works.
I’m glad that’s the case. I want what I have now, not what I had then. Just remember, I’ve been developing my current condition for longer than most of you. Your day will come, I am sure.
Arwen said: Quote:I now wonder if part of my disillusionment is due my trials. I think the trials I have been through have forced the rose colored glasses off and I have to wonder if having them off hasn’t given me a much better clarity to life. And I have think it is like Adam and Eve eating the fruit, sure it was nice in the garden of Eden but boring and not really living, and after the fruit life got to be harder but a whole lot more interesting and more enjoyable. I think that is how I feel now, I have seen the truth, I accept the truth, but don’t make me go back into that garden full of blissful ignorance. Because it comes off as delusions of grandeur, not rainbows and butterflies.
This all said, do you see this type of thing happening? And do any of us want to go back to that state? Could we go back?
I understand exactly what you’re saying. I am trying to make sense of the trials I’m going through too. It doesn’t always help to hear the lessons you described & come away feeling uplifted or gaining any new insights into life. The most satisfying experiences are usually one on one with a friend, hometeacher or relative who has also gone through life experiences that we both can learn from. Alot of times they are not in the LDS church.
That being said, I also believe that for those of us that have had the “rose colored glasses” removed, we have a responsibility to be compassionate, patient & understanding of others. There will be other members of our ward will eventually go through the experiences (or similar experiences) we have. They may not be exact but we should be willing to say, “I understand what you’re going through & this is how I handled the situation”. “This is what worked for me & this didn’t.”
For the present, I try to attend & participate in meetings that help me grow as a person. Or, where I can be of service. (Whatever that means.) For everything else, I don’t attend. That is a selfish view I know. But, that is the only way I can keep my sanity. I hope that my attitude will change. For now, that’s what works for me.
Mike from Milton.
I think that the ideals can cloud judgement, for sure… we had a retired missionary couple explaining how they kept together, and one of the admissions was that they expected each other to have faults, and tried to work with them. On the other hand, I’m sick of all this doom and gloom about marriage. It’s continually presented as abusive, hypocritical or a form of prison on TV and Hollywood etc – that is not the case. The only people round here these days who want to get married seem to be the gays… the straights don’t bother.
Quote:I am trying to make sense of the trials I’m going through too.
My viewpoint only: I found it to be an exercise in futility to try to make sense of trials. Even if we could replicate trials exactly, we would likely find they had differing impacts upon those to whom they were given. I found I could say – trials are simply events to which we assign a certain impact upon our lives. We get to choose the impact.
I came to appreciate that I didn’t have to endure all types of trials in order to gain compassion and empathy. For me, it wasn’t ok to complain about the trials when I hadn’t complained about the positives (blessings). I learned not to offer advice for it is rarely solicited and seldom heard. I chose to start hearing what others were saying as it was easier for me to listen than to share.
The thoughts I arrived at did not come overnight. It continues to be an ongoing process. And I am always aware that my views will change and evolve.
Arwen wrote:This all said, do you see this type of thing happening? And do any of us want to go back to that state? Could we go back?
Yes, I do see it happening…That sign on BYU campus reads, “The world is our campus”
It should read, “The campus is our world” Or “The church is our world.”
Sometimes I do want to go back – like when I think of how carefree I was when I was a child.
But I also got freaked out & scared & sad more easily then.
I think we can take little intermissions – mental breaks – We need those.
But we can’t go back to being blind after we’ve seen the light!
😆 truthordare wrote:I found I could say – trials are simply events to which we assign a certain impact upon our lives. We get to choose the impact.
Yes, but to a very limited degree. While going through mourning my wife and I handled it very differently (books I have read say this is typical for men and women and even that a fair number of couples split in part due to misunderstandings between the differing paths). I know that I felt compelled in my process and that what I thought was me going crazy was actually known and described as “Loss of the assumptive world.” I would argue that we have limited freedom to choose how our trials impact us.
Arwen wrote:I am bringing this up because I now wonder if part of my disillusionment is due my trials. I think the trials I have been through have forced the rose colored glasses off and I have to wonder if having them off hasn’t given me a much better clarity to life. And I have think it is like Adam and Eve eating the fruit, sure it was nice in the garden of Eden but boring and not really living, and after the fruit life got to be harder but a whole lot more interesting and more enjoyable. I think that is how I feel now, I have seen the truth, I accept the truth, but don’t make me go back into that garden full of blissful ignorance. Because it comes off as delusions of grandeur, not rainbows and butterflies.
Also in learning about the “loss of the assumptive world” I found that part of the healing process is rebuilding an assumptive world. I found this to be interesting. Why do we need another assumptive world based on assumptions (we all know where that can take us
:crazy: ), why can’t we just live in the “real world”? The answer is that humans just don’t work that way. We are creatures of sociality and meaning and imagination and purpose. We look for patterns and use them to produce shortcuts. It is just how we are wired.You seem to be describing your change of lenses as “taking off the rose colored glasses” or “leaving Eden” or perhaps as an awakening. Others may describe their lens changes going into certain Christian mindsets as being “born again” or “repenting.”
My point is that these young women with their “fairy tale” attitudes have lenses or assumptive worlds or schemas that are consistent with their life experiences to date. Most of the time our assumptive worlds develop and grow slowly but sometimes there is a catastrophic event that happens suddenly. If they have a new experience that jars them painfully out of that lens, then they will need to construct a new lens that better fits or describes their new life experience. This is normal and good. The lenses can be loosely compared to prescription glasses that grow organically over time with the owner…unless they get shattered. Their prescription may not work for you but it does work for them and vice versa – so in that sense the prescription is “true.”
I also want to add that this does not mean that people with certain TBM assumptive worlds do not have trials – the shattering of the assumptive world seems to happen when the assumptive world is no longer adequate to explain or “make sense of” or create satisfactory meaning form our experiences. It is difficult to say why we can have two individuals with a similar trial, one experiencing an assumptive world collapse and the other a hardening of the assumptive world almost like they are doubling down or tightening their grip on the proverbial iron rod. I can only say that based upon my personal experience – I believe personal choice to be very limited in this process.
Quote:I would argue that we have limited freedom to choose how our trials impact us.
I did not express myself very well when I said I get to choose how my trials impact me. I hope this a little more clear.
I don’t get to choose my trials…I do get to choose how to deal with them and what my attitude will be toward them. Along with this, I understand that as a trial unfolds, my choices and attitudes will likely change. I am not saying this is blue skies and roses. At times I get angry and resentful, but these are still my choices.
There is no right or wrong way to do any of this. We find the paths that work best for us.
I absolutely have found there is a connection between crises of faith and personal trials. When the ideal fails, those who never conceived of anything otherwise often do feel betrayed and misled. But it was just being naive and immature. Unfortunately, the only way to give people good judgement is through bad experience. truthordare wrote:There is no right or wrong way to do any of this. We find the paths that work best for us.
I agree with this, and Hawkgrrrl’s idea that it is experience for us. We should expect to have experiences, whether that is bad or good is how we define them.truthordare wrote:I don’t get to choose my trials…I do get to choose how to deal with them and what my attitude will be toward them. Along with this, I understand that as a trial unfolds, my choices and attitudes will likely change. I am not saying this is blue skies and roses. At times I get angry and resentful, but these are still my choices.
I agree to a point. I remember watching a video presentation entitled something like “positive choices to make at each of the stages of grief.” The point was that at different steps there were things you could do to help it progress more smoothly – like write in a journal, or talk to friends about your feelings, or get out in nature to think/meditate, or try to do something you used to find joy in and try to allow yourself to enjoy it again. There were things to be done about not shutting out loved ones emotionally etc. So I agree that there are choices to be made, they just don’t seem to be choices between happy/sad.
I read about a deceased GA’s wife that made the decision to be happy around others and then cried into her pillow when she was alone. Now I will venture to speculate that she felt some pressure as the matriarch/ high profile GA’s widow to hold it together and smile through the tears for the sake of appearances and
ifthis was indeed part of her reasoning then it makes me sad. It makes me think that she erected a wall of false happiness that isolated her from the people who love her most and could share her burden. You should know that because of my personal crisis, I perhaps overemphasize the role of variables that are outside of the individual’s control. This is just how I see things now and that is ok. I do admire and somewhat envy the confidence of persons who are master’s of their own destiny. Sometimes that confidence allows them to do amazing things…at other times it leads them to crash and burn…it is difficult to tell what makes the difference.
truthordare wrote:There is no right or wrong way to do any of this. We find the paths that work best for us.
:thumbup:
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