- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
I’m curious if these words stood out to any of you during conference, this is the second to last paragraph in Elder Packer’s talk “Counsel to Youth”: Quote:Sometimes you might be tempted to think as I did from time to time in my youth: “The way things are going, the world’s going to be over with. The end of the world is going to come before I get to where I should be.” Not so! You can look forward to doing it right—getting married, having a family, seeing your children and grandchildren, maybe even great-grandchildren.
When I heard those words it sounded to me like he was saying the youth of today will have grandchildren and possibly great-grandchildren before the second coming, which surprised me because I think it goes against what a good portion of members currently think. It also struck me as a reflection based on wisdom of a point that I have realized through studying Mormon history — that every generation from the time of Joseph Smith has thought (at least in part) that the second coming would come either in their lifetime or at least while their children were alive.
Thoughts? Did Elder Packer’s words strike you differently?
I have had occasion to bring up Elder Packer’s quote at each of the last 3 EQ lessons. I don’t much like the millennium stuff, because despite all the good stuff that is supposed to happen it always seems to get bogged down in speculative talk of everyone being converted to Mormonism or how many Sons of Perdition there will be or the wicked being burned. It just doesn’t do much for me. I think we should focus on being prepared through living and growing, and stay far far away from the survivalist element. Orson wrote:that every generation from the time of Joseph Smith has thought (at least in part) that the second coming would come either in their lifetime or at least while their children were alive.
Also the original apostles and disciples in the primitive church believed that the second coming was imminent. Among other things, Paul’s advice not to marry seems based on this premise. The JST changes this to only be directed to those called to the ministry, and the book “Paul’s Life and Letters” defends this idea – but to what end? We do not believe in infallibility nor in future sight for our leaders. What is so wrong with Paul being off on his timeline assumptions?
One of the men in our HPG mentioned that quote in the lesson about the Second Coming – and it was referenced again last week in the Millennium lesson as an example of how the teacher saw the overall topic (as highlighting the need to do what we can now to become someone who won’t be lazy when the mortal pressures no longer exist). I really like the fact that Pres. Packer said it – in an open forum where everyone could hear it.
I also like that it came from him, just because I like to hear him say things with which I agree fully.
My jaw dropped and I had to do a double take when I heard it! And then I got a big ‘ole grin from ear to ear. 
I generally don’t jive with his overall view of things, but I must confess that I like his style. Seriously. At the very minimum, he has the balls to throw out blunt opinions/”revelations” about meaty topics
:clap: . Who even does that anymore among the top brass at HQ? The rest is all vanilla milquetoast sweetened with Splenda so it doesn’t go straight to our spiritual hips.I am thoroughly amused by his subversive nature. I imagined him just chuckling inside all the rest of conference. Chew on that bombshell dudes! Millennium isn’t coming anytime soon — might want to make a 100 year plan tide you over for a while. Hahahahaha. I can’t help but suspect or imagine that he is throwing out bombshells lately as his life draws to a close. Don’t like what I said? Some little piss-ant bureaucrat without an apostolic calling in the correlation committee is going to tell me what to say? TAKE THAT!
I love it.
No man knoweth the time. Gerald Lund in his book “The Coming of the Lord” quoted a GA who said back in the 1980’s that the second coming would arrive within the lifetime of his children. Well, that didn’t happen. In all seriousness, I really like Pres. Packer – even though I don’t agree with a decent percent of what he says. Like Brian, I like the fact that he stands up and says exactly what he believes – and, frankly, the controversial stuff overshadows a HUGE amount of really cool, liberating stuff he also has said. I think a lot of people who dislike him would be shocked (or, one of my favorite words, flabbergasted) at a lot of what Pres. Packer has said over the years. He is characterized as an ultra-conservative extremist by many people who disagree with him about things like sexuality, but he isn’t overall. Yes, he’s said some really conservative things, but he also has said some of the most liberal things I’ve heard in General Conference in my lifetime – and I mean that.
I like him as much as I do because he reminds me of myself in one way:
I don’t have a single “conservative” or “liberal” view of everything, so I’m hard to classify properly with labels. It drives some people nuts who read my comments online, since they want to pigeon-hole me as one or the other. I’m pretty sure there will be people in the future who read my personal blog and everything I’ve written throughout the Bloggernacle who will wonder if there were two or more authors of it all. I’ll share a specific example that still makes me shake my head.
There was a person who had been an official “follower” of my personal blog for a couple of years. He left comments praising much of my writing – and then I wrote a post about the Priesthood ban that he took to be attacking of the former church leadership. It wasn’t, but that’s how he read it. He wrote quite a mean-spirited comment about that post on another site where the author had chastised me for writing my post – and I called him on it. He went on to call me an apostate who obviously was devoid of humility and the Spirit and vowed to un-subscribe from my blog – which he did.
I see a lot of that in Pres. Packer. Lots of people love him; lots of people hate him; VERY FEW people really look closely at everything he’s said over the decades and can see the complicated man that he really is. They jump on some things, ignore others and attack their constructed caricature – and I feel bad for him, having experienced it myself to a much lesser degree.
I think he said a lot of things which hit the core of angst for some people. I never held him in any negative light, however of all the apostles, he gets the most bad press. For example, The Unwritten Order of Things talk he gave, which provides the “don’t ever ask to be released and never say ‘No’ to a calling”. Mormon America had a piece on him, where he was portrayed as a bit of a disruption to the quorum of the twelve given his hard-line views. There is the gay comments he makes. I think a number of people hope and pray he never becomes Prophet, as I hear he is up there in seniority.
Since he was one of my mission presidents, I guess I’ll chime in. We couldn’t go to church if we didn’t have an investigator so that meant knocking on doors during snow storms on Sunday mornings. I was put on forgot and spent the last 9 months of my mission in one area. A year after going home I wrote him a letter apologizing for being rotten missionary and got a letter back from him signed by the mission secretary. I bumped into him at the church office building about 7 years later and he had no idea who I was. Which was interesting since sometime after that I ran into my other mission president, Truman Madsen, at the airport and he remembered my name. I fully support Pres. Packer in his office and calling but listening to him speak is still hard for me. Quote:We couldn’t go to church if we didn’t have an investigator so that meant knocking on doors during snow storms on Sunday mornings.
Wow. That’s all.
[As an aside, I knew one of Truman Madsen’s daughters while I was in college. (She was older than I am. She and her husband helped my wife and me when we moved to the Boston area.) She couldn’t have been sweeter, and I have heard wonderful things about Brother Madsen from lots of people who knew him.]
I think you will hear alot more of this kind of talk in the future. Smart leaders will realize that they can not push this end of the world stuff forever in the information age. This is probably just the first of many references you will hear over the next few years. It makes sense if you keep promising something and it never happens you will lose you credibility. So start telling people it will never happen in their lifetime, then you have no predictions to live up to because it is not going to happen and you will be correct. The way I see it the church would be smart to stop preaching the end of the world and focus on making the here and now better.
My MP also had the rule that we couldn’t attend church without an investigator. I was totally inactive for a good chunk of my mission! I frequently wrote him to protest that stupid rule because of the implication that we were not worthy if we didn’t have an investigator with us. I specifically pointed out that my comp & I couldn’t attend church for six weeks straight, then we brought 2 families to church to be baptized in one Sunday (the members didn’t even know who we were), then we had to go inactive again the following week. When I pointed out the stupidity of that example, plus the fact that my trainee had been inactive before her mission, the MP relented and said we could attend also to support our new members. My mission president was phenomenal. That’s all I can say. He is a person upon which I reflect when I think of the highly negative leaders I have experienced. It is a neutralizing force, and shows the power of personality and personal judgment in Church leadership. I’m appalled, by the way, that the MP’s instituted the “no Church unless an investigator” rule. I’m also glad they let have, in recent years, let missionaries go to the temple, when that was forbidden in my mission.
I really hate to think that the Lord’s kingdom in the afterlife is run by such carrots and sticks on things that ultimately, are supposed to be a matter of character.
GBSmith wrote:I bumped into him at the church office building about 7 years later and he had no idea who I was.
This reminds me of the time I met my mission president at a stake conf a few years after my mission. I asked him if he knew who I was and he replied “Elder something-or-other”!
😆 :clap: No man knoweth the time. Gerald Lund in his book “The Coming of the Lord” quoted a GA who said back in the 1980’s that the second coming would arrive within the lifetime of his children. Well, that didn’t happen.
Elder Cannon of the first presidency in 1889 or 1890 thought the second coming would be within a year, I’m sure there are many, many similar examples. I have heard of patriarchal blessings from my grandparents time that basically pointed to the recipient being alive at the time of the coming.
All this is why I see Elder Packer’s remark as one of wisdom.
Quote:I see a lot of that in Pres. Packer. Lots of people love him; lots of people hate him; VERY FEW people really look closely at everything he’s said over the decades and can see the complicated man that he really is
Don’t worry he won’t be the next prophet, Pres. Monson will outlive him. Additionally, I guess waiting for Godot was the right movie for me to watch in high school. I felt kind of sad realizing if it was true, the second coming would never happen. Well, the truth is, if I live to a ripe old age-say about 80, and then I die, then I can say that I was seriously lied to as well as many who lived before me. Regardless, the second coming will happen for all when we die at our appointed time. Why worry about something so far out of our control anyway. Carpe diem! I guess existentialism has its place, but it is viewed as pessimism. I remember also watching Rosencrans and Gildenstern are dead. What a trip that was!
Quote:When I heard those words it sounded to me like he was saying the youth of today will have grandchildren and possibly great-grandchildren before the second coming, which surprised me because I think it goes against what a good portion of members currently think. It also struck me as a reflection based on wisdom of a point that I have realized through studying Mormon history — that every generation from the time of Joseph Smith has thought (at least in part) that the second coming would come either in their lifetime or at least while their children were alive.
I think this goes back to the statement that no man knows the day or hour. So many people are scared out of having a family now because the economy stinks and the divorce rate is above 50%. Yet, we are told to continue on with life, like nothing is happening and yet somehow it will all work out. I think there should be an alternative to family life. Monasticism is such a great alternative. Let’s face it not everyone can hack being a parent and should not feel coerced to do so, or feel that they aren’t significant because they don’t have a family of their own.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.