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This is at least in part a vent, but please know I have seriously tried to let it go and I am having difficulty doing so. I do realize that some people need these types of “faith reassuring” events to bolster their own faith, but that internal dissonance is not working for me at the moment on this one. So here goes. I was in another ward this past Sunday for F&TM. Near the end this sister got up and among other things said that she and her husband had been looking for a used boat so they could go fishing on the lake. They had looked at a few boats they had found for sale but hadn’t found what they wanted. One day she was out running errands and felt impressed to go down the street, and in doing so found the boat they are now buying. She said she normally wouldn’t have gone down that far on the street because it was in the opposite direction of where she was headed, but that she followed the prompting of the Spirit. She added in the story that this boat will help them fellowship others because they can take them out on the lake, also. So I’m sitting there thinking “Really? There are children being abused right now. There are children starving right now. And God helped you find a boat? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? God didn’t save the Jews from the Holocaust but he directed you to a boat? Really? REALLY?” Things like this have been the biggest challenge to me in coming back.
Thanks for letting me vent.
I agree that a testimony like that can be insensitive to people facing realproblems. It can even be insensitive to people that simply can’t afford the luxury of a boat. If there’s a lesson to be learned in all of this I’d say that it’s something like: god loves us enough to be involved in the minutia of our lives. [tangent]As far as Jews and Holocaust goes… perhaps god did save them from the Holocaust, he just had to wait while people changed their hearts enough to raise armies to do it.[/tangent]
Yes, Nibbler, I recognize that many (most?) latter-day saints believe God is intimately involved with their daily lives – I don’t happen to believe so.I know this is more my problem than her’s, but it is exactly this type of reasoning, along with my experiences, that lead me to believe God is not involved in our lives much (if at all). Side note to your tangent: I believe God didn’t save the Jews from the Holocaust because he refuses to interfere with our agency (and I don’t think that’s a bad thing). That idea could be applies to this situation, actually – this lady finding a boat really does not affect anyone’s agency hence it’s something God could willingly do. That mental gymnastic isn’t working for me, either.
I am with you DJ as well. Recently a friend of mine was on a plane with his dad, mom, wife, and sister flying out to Utah to his brothers graduation. His mom had a heart attack on the plane and died (I attended the funeral this past Saturday). Really? That was somehow in the plan? He couldn’t have waited a few hours?
I think my biggest issue with this is if you do believe in the God helps me find my keys, then everything else must be attributed to Him as well. If you attribute all good, then all bad must be attributed to Him. I don’t think you can have it both ways. Thus, I have a strong belief in agency, but most things are pretty hands off because those are the rules. Agency and choice are paramount.
I can’t even fathom believing that God helped someone find a boat to go fishing on the weekend.
*Opinions are my own
In my little tangent people did the heavy lifting but the religious came along and gave god the credit 
The lady found a boat and credited god for it. Maybe god wasn’t involved in the process whatsoever but the experience still served to build this lady’s relationship with deity. I suppose that’s something, maybe not much to people outside of her perspective, maybe meant just for her. It seemed to edify her.
God has never helped me find a boat. Of course, I don’t believe in a micro-managing God, so I’ve never prayed and asked God to help me find a boat. Thus, depending on how you look at it, you could say I’ve never allowed God to help me in that way and wouldn’t credit God with doing it even if I got that kind of help in different circumstances that would seem trivial to others.
However . . .
I can look back and see a few instances of obvious (to me) help in really important things and what appears to be a general guiding force my life that I believe God can and has helped me. It makes absolutely no logical sense to me, particularly in view of the type of things you mention where God hasn’t interceded in obvious ways, but it is what it is.
Fwiw, I try NEVER to dismiss others’ perspectives completely (with some extreme exceptions where real and serious harm to others is involved). I figure God works with people in whatever ways they can recognize (or even simply hope was divine help), so I try not to dismiss someone’s personal view of divine help. I might not see it that way myself, but I want them to respect my own perspective, so I try not to reject theirs completely.
Finally, I believe if “God is within us” and we are “children of the most high God”, then God works with us every day to whatever degree we are striving to be / become more divine ourselves or in tune with our best selves. For me, it might not be manifest exactly as the lady in the meeting sees it, but it still would fit the general framework of inspiration for things of our daily lives.
I remember about a month after we had or stillborn child, we were sitting in F&TM and a lady in the ward got up and talked about how God had helped her find a spool of thread. I sat there and had the thought “Why on Earth would God help her find a spool of thread, but not stop the cord from wrapping around my son’s throat and choking him?” It was shortly after that we asked to attend another ward. I seem to have come to terms with this as I believe that God is really “hands off” in our daily lives. When we have a major decision or dilema, he’s there. Otherwise, he lets us live our lives.
Now there are F&TM’s where I think “Why didn’t I bring a bag of popcorn. This is entertaining!!”
You could also ask why God hasn’t saved thousands of Gazans, including children, who’ve died recently from Israeli bombing. Although some Holocaust survivors have criticized this, the families of other Holocaust are responsible for devastating a third of Gaza.
Ray, I also don’t believe in a micromanaging God and I believe that God (usually the Holy Ghost, as it was in this case) can work with individuals as individuals and therefore I can’t outright dismiss anyone else’s spiritual experience, either. That doesn’t mean I can’t doubt it. I do not share your testimony of God guiding us, but as I have said here before, your experiences are yours and yours alone as are mine. FWIW, she never said she prayed about finding a boat, I suppose that could have been assumed or it could be she was just trying to say that God helps us when we don’t necessarily expect (which was somewhat in line with some other things she said). We’re on the same page, Meh Mormon, although I’m not even sure of the major decisions. Likewise, I do sometimes find F&TM to be entertaining – if we weren’t supposed to be fasting (I don’t usually) popcorn would be a great idea.
Sam, good point. I was relating my actual thoughts as she was speaking, and the children and other innocents of Gaza did not come to mind at that moment. Nevertheless, I do believe we are all God’s children and neither the Jews nor the Mormons have any special privileges or favors – if God really was as some believe he is, he certainly could have saved the Children in Gaza as well. I’m sure we could come up with countless of examples where God could intervene in serious situations (homicide, suicide, the aforementioned abuse, etc.) but does not.
When I went inactive, it was a F&T like this that was the final “straw”. When I decided to try church again, we had another F&T with a similar message.
My final conclusion was: God has a sense of humor.
I guess, we all have the right to interpret how God works in our own life & give Him credit when we think He is.
The big questions for me is: When do you know it is God’s will that you’re going through a particular situation?
When you pray for an answer, how do you know when it comes & who is providing the answer?
Interesting question DJ.
Quote:There are children being abused right now. There are children starving right now. And God helped you find a boat? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? God didn’t save the Jews from the Holocaust but he directed you to a boat? Really? REALLY?”
Yeah. Exactly.
God is either a capricious God, choosing to help someone purchase a boat while not saving millions of lives, OR he is simply hands off to let us work through our lives to the best of our abilities. Personally, I think viewing him as hands off is more faithful than believing he is a respecter of persons helping one person find a spool of thread while refusing to save a child and his family from still birth. A capricious God is an unloving, unknowable, inconsistent, changing God. For me, that view doesn’t inspire much faith.
We have a wonderful woman (Mary) in my ward. In her conversations with DW, whenever DW talks about good things that are happening in our family Mary will say, “tithing blessings.” This is truly ironic because we haven’t paid a dime of tithing in years (though we encourage our children to pay).
DW and I have discussed that for Mary this perspective is helpful and necessary. 1) Things always seem to be tight with her family so focusing on the “blessings” derived from tithing (like having an old clunker of a car survive another month) helps to justify the expense. 2) This perspective allows her to maintain more gratitude. 3) Sometimes people will ascribe the help they receive from others to God. In thinking about this, I have come up with the following theory: People cannot be depended on 100%, but God can. I can use good things that people do as evidence that God knows my needs and is mindful of me. This thought is more comforting than just having helpful friends and neighbors.
Mary was recently diagnosed with MS and has trouble doing all of the things that she usually does. Headaches from her lack of eye coordination even limit her from playing on the floor with her children. It has been really difficult for this perpetually serving sister to now be on the receiving end of service.
I hope that in her life going forward she is able to have joy and gratitude in whatever way is most helpful to her.
Now, when I hear people say something that sounds naive but is otherwise harmless – I remember Mary and take joy in the perspective for a moment. It is somewhat like watching kids get excited for Christmas. May the comfort their perspective gives them persist throughout their life.
P.S. My personal perspective is that God loves but does not intervene in our mortal lives (with rare exceptions?). I am open to others having different experiences as I am loath to tell another that their view on their life is wrong – just as I would want others to give my perspective on my life the benefit of the doubt.
All fair points…if you can’t tell my new faith house sometimes isn’t as well thought out as it should be. Good to have others perspectives which helps me examine these points from another angle. I really have no interest in taking away others helpful stories. To be honest, it might be really nice and probably a lot more comforting to think the way Mary does. I personally can’t do it, and in fact am a bit jealous of that kind of faith.
I guess the most I can do is act in a way that might be the answers to someone’s prayer, and if they want to attribute that to God intervening in their life, I am happy to act as the link.
I believe some Muslims use the phrase “God willing” at the end of many statements. For years I found that annoying – as if they were adding a caveat when commiting to do something – but I later had a BYU professor who said he found it to be a refreshing statement of humility – which I hadn’t considered. The idea that God gets the credit for all good things sounds nice at some level and can be refreshing when comparing it to the greed and self-centeredness we often see. That being said, I believe in a god that largely lets things happen and don’t really credit him for much that happens in my life. However, I do ask him to bless my bean burrito for dinner, which is similar to giving him credit for helping us find a boat. It’s probably more tradition and trying to be grateful than anything. If I don’t get food poisoning and if I sleep safely through the night, it’s not my wife’s excellent cooking and it’s not the policeman who get the credit, but god. Probably not a bad thing, but others should at least share the credit.
SunbeltRed wrote:I guess the most I can do is act in a way that might be the answers to someone’s prayer, and if they want to attribute that to God intervening in their life, I am happy to act as the link.
This is how I view priesthood/Father’s blessings.
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